Pathfinder 2E Playtest

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Necronomitron
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Re: Pathfinder 2E Playtest

Postby Necronomitron » Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:10 pm

[red] wrote:Thumbing through: I like how they did action economy. Otherwise, my typical Pathfinder gripe: "Wow....They made this really, really complex."

I like Ancestry rather than Race as a title.

Its weird that you get four different kinds of feats: ancestry feats, class feats, skill feats, and general feats. That....is a lot of feats. I like how customizable it is, but still. Lots of feats.

The non-bound accuracy is now throwing me as well - I really like the slower 5e progression. That being said, the different in skill levels as a single point, and non-proficiency is just 2 less points is a bit tighter of a spread that I would like for a non-bound system. Sucking at something at level 10 is better than being LEGENDARY at level 4. Non-proficiency should be much, much lower while legendary should be higher (imo).


I like the action economy as well. I played in a brief demo encounter at the Paizo booth at GenCon and I thought it opened up some interesting choices beyond "move and spam your basic abilities".

Ancestry. Race. I'm not moved either way. It was a necessity for them though, since they wanted to push their character creation "A-B-C" scheme. Ancestry. Background. Class.

Yeah. That's a lot of feats. The skill feats feel more akin to talent tree abilities to me. And the class feats are basically class feature choices. It does feel a bit like feat overload though. However, I do like that they separated them by type and then herded the player into choosing them by said type.

As far as proficiencies go, I can't help but wonder if they really wanted being non-proficient in a skill to be the balancing factor. I don't have the list in front of me, but I recall the number of things you can't do if you aren't proficient in a skill being relatively punitive. Like, having any proficiency at all is where the real "power" in a skill lies, because it opens up options in what's possible.
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Re: Pathfinder 2E Playtest

Postby [red] » Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:58 pm

Necronomitron wrote:As far as proficiencies go, I can't help but wonder if they really wanted being non-proficient in a skill to be the balancing factor. I don't have the list in front of me, but I recall the number of things you can't do if you aren't proficient in a skill being relatively punitive. Like, having any proficiency at all is where the real "power" in a skill lies, because it opens up options in what's possible.


Interesting. Other versions would use the DC as the gatekeeper, whereas the gatekeeper for Pathfinder 2e has a more restrictive method by stopping the roll and outright saying if you are untrained, you cannot try (for many of the skill checks - I'm sure something like swimming or climbing would still be allowed).
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Re: Pathfinder 2E Playtest

Postby JediSoth » Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:51 am

ScoobyThulu wrote:
JediSoth wrote: I'm no longer interested in Pathfinder-levels of complexity.

You and me both. I like Pathfinder for what it is, the next logical progression for 3E D&D. I disliked 4E enough that it was the reason I made the switch to PF. Not a wank just the reasons why I switched.


10-15 years ago, I would have been all over Pathfinder (and I acquired quite a bit of it during a years-long gaming hiatus). Now, it's just no longer the game for me. 5E is just about as complex a game as I'm comfortable running and playing long-term.
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Re: Pathfinder 2E Playtest

Postby ScoobyThulu » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:28 am

OK Booters.

My wife and I went to one of our LGS to meet with a guy about playing the Playtest. Because why not? I'm not running it and I get to play. He had the book and then the wife goes and buys the Playtest. So there we go, I do have it.

Expect Action Reports on it.

First impression(s):
The character sheet is ponderous, like filling out a tax return that doubles as the high school ASVAB test.
Not enough space to fill out what you want to fill out. It would be nice if the sheet had a primer (like the pre gens in the PF Boxed Set, great intro set BTW) to explain a few concepts right in front of you.
Such as how the attack "strikes" matrix is spelled out, it looks like the attack stats are one side of the equation and damage on the other. It felt like fill in the blank algebra. "Do the parenthetical first, move to exponents, then multiplacation and division, blahblahblah."
It is a Playtest, few bells and whistles in the actual book. The first part is a numerical ordering of character creation that could use some sidebars to explain new concepts. It's in there but you have to dig for it.
By the Horns of the Great Googly Moogly the feats.
Once I got into the concepts it seems kind of cool.

Resonance:I do not know what to think of this concept. Basically you have to have so much invested in this to use magic items. It is CHA based so CHA is definitely no longer a dump stat.

Kind of interesting: Goblins are a character class and for Pathfinder that makes hella sense as their goblins are very much their mascot.
Half-orc and half-elf are kind of "sub-classes" of human.
Paladins and Rangers no longer get spells at higher levels making spellcasters more special; I haven’t looked at what replaces magic for those classes.
Character creation is all “point” or boost based. You get bonuses and flaws based up on your ancestry; you get X boost for being a dwarf, then X boost for background, x boost for class.

Not sure: The skills are completely reworked, you can be trained, expert, master and legendary and that influences what your roll bonus will be.
Alchemist is a core class. I think this is dumb, since all of the others will probably be re-introduced in the PF2 Advanced Player's Guide or something anyway. It's a moot point.

Verdict: Undecided.
BUT.
They are making enough changes why not really change it and step away from having to OGL with WotC and D&D? Make it your own game altogether.
I am going to play it, I will play anything but I wouldn’t run this with 10 foot pole checking for traps in a 2 in 6 chance.
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Re: Pathfinder 2E Playtest

Postby Necronomitron » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:45 pm

From what I understand, Resonance is not getting great feedback and is looking like it will be modified. I don't love it as is.

I ran about three-four encounters of the playtest scenario today and I have mixed feelings. We're going to finish the playtest after which I'm sure I'll have decided if I want to move forward with it upon release. The combat calculus honestly wasn't as bad as the keywords (although advantage/disadvantage is a pretty difficult mechanic to try and top in D&D variants). It relies on them heavily and I was not prepared enough to have quick access to them. I find myself appreciating that the action economy makes combat choices far more interesting than just "make your move action and then spam an attack." I think combat has the potential to move much more quickly as a result.

Also, speaking of quicker combats, magic weapons and critical hits. Wow. A +1 magic weapon does not simply confer at +1 bonus to attack and damage. It confers a +1 bonus to attack and then adds 1 damage die to the damage. A +2 magic weapon adds a +2 to the attack and an additional 2 damage dice to the damage. Crits aren't only triggered by rolling a Nat20. They're also now triggered by scoring a hit of 10 or more above the target's AC on an attack roll. The damage dice and modifiers are all doubled. So it's more easy to score a crit now. Significantly more so.

The character sheets are a bit onerous. But I play with a layout/graphic design artist, so we never, ever, ever use the provided character sheets for any game anyways. He always sees ways to design the sheets with a more organic and efficient presentation of the information. So the sheets won't be a concern for me.

All in all, I think I like it. I definitely want to explore more of the playtest book and see what else the system has to offer. I think combat will end up being faster than 5E once we get the hang of it. Perhaps more deadly as well, but we'll see. I think I will likely have a slight preference for 5E over PF2, but I know that PF2 is going to have the supplemental support that I had hoped 5E would have. I don't have any interest in mining the DM's Guild for much stuff. I want my book shelves full of RPG books, not my hard drive. But it really just depends on the experiences we have with it. I enjoyed it enough to want to keep seeing what it offers, which is a good sign for me.
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Re: Pathfinder 2E Playtest

Postby ScoobyThulu » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:10 am

Necronomitron wrote:From what I understand, Resonance is not getting great feedback and is looking like it will be modified. I don't love it as is.



Also, speaking of quicker combats, magic weapons and critical hits. Wow. A +1 magic weapon does not simply confer at +1 bonus to attack and damage. It confers a +1 bonus to attack and then adds 1 damage die to the damage. A +2 magic weapon adds a +2 to the attack and an additional 2 damage dice to the damage. Crits aren't only triggered by rolling a Nat20. They're also now triggered by scoring a hit of 10 or more above the target's AC on an attack roll. The damage dice and modifiers are all doubled. So it's more easy to score a crit now. Significantly more so.

The character sheets are a bit onerous. But I play with a layout/graphic design artist, so we never, ever, ever use the provided character sheets for any game anyways. He always sees ways to design the sheets with a more organic and efficient presentation of the information. So the sheets won't be a concern for me.



I love the idea of combat with Big Hits, it has a cinematic feel to it. In REH's Conan stories our barbarian anti-hero doesn't hit a guy and then hit a guy again. He slays once and is content. That is more realistic as well. As a DM I will, if the hit is "big" enough and it seems cool, will take a lower level NPC just right off the board. They are viable threats but ultimately cannon fodder.

I often make a better sheet with MS Word, cutting and pasting with the snipping tool. It isn't hard. One side will be the RP type stuff, flip it over for all combat stats amd repeat abilities and saves on both.
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Re: Pathfinder 2E Playtest

Postby Necronomitron » Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:39 pm

ScoobyThulu wrote:
I love the idea of combat with Big Hits, it has a cinematic feel to it. In REH's Conan stories our barbarian anti-hero doesn't hit a guy and then hit a guy again. He slays once and is content. That is more realistic as well. As a DM I will, if the hit is "big" enough and it seems cool, will take a lower level NPC just right off the board. They are viable threats but ultimately cannon fodder.


I like it when a system mechanically recognizes the rule of cool and makes "minion" tier NPCs a thing. Taking out swaths of them like bowling pins is just...fun. In the absence of said mechanics, yeah, just DIY.
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Re: Pathfinder 2E Playtest

Postby THAC0 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:03 pm

I DL'd the playtest and read through a portion of it. I just created a character as far a completing the ability scores.
I didn't go the way of PF back in the day so I dont know if PF had a more heroic feel. I am familiar with the 27 Point Buy. I added up my PF2 ability scores on a point buy calculator. The final tally was a 36 point Buy. That's a more robust starting score than I'm used too. Is this normal for PF? IDK.
Saving Throws are borrowed from 4e (and maybe something else?) settling on Fortitude, Reflex and Will

I watched one of the Youtube talking heads giving a very biased "Unbiased" comparison of 5e and PF2. I only mention this because he is apparently a fan of 4e as he applauded Paizo for borrowing from 4e on several points. That might allude to a more heroic feel in PF2(?)
I enjoyed 4e at lower levels for what it was - but it was def a more heroic system than 3.5 or 5e.

If Paizo wants to complete with 5e they have to give PF2 a short time investment for entry level players. Delving further into the playtest rules I don't see that approach being taken. There's still a lot of crunch. Good for those that like that type of system.

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Re: Pathfinder 2E Playtest

Postby [red] » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:30 pm

THAC0 wrote:There's still a lot of crunch. Good for those that like that type of system.


There is so much crunch in it, might as well have a Cap'n and come with crunch berries.
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Re: Pathfinder 2E Playtest

Postby THAC0 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:57 am

[red] wrote:
THAC0 wrote:There's still a lot of crunch. Good for those that like that type of system.


There is so much crunch in it, might as well have a Cap'n and come with crunch berries.

So you take the nuts out :lol: though I am not certain, nor do I care to delve further into PF2 it figure out what you can and cannot remove without breaking it.

We successfully house ruled out all the mechanics in 4e that tied it to a map. Played it that way for about 3 years.


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