Random Forum Thoughts.

Off-topic discussion that doesn't fit anywhere else.
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Azhrei Vep
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Re: Random Forum Thoughts.

Postby Azhrei Vep » Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:54 pm

tombombodil wrote:Incidentally, maybe I don't understand how populations work, but couldn't he have just made it so that no species could have a number of kids equal to or greater than the number of individuals their species needs to procreate. So no human could have more than 1 biological kid.

Wouldn't that have the same effect as the snap in a few generations but without all the mass murder?

Possibly, I don't know the math, but it doesn't seem terribly unreasonable. Unlike the mad man who's determined to prove he was right in one specific instance on a cosmic level ... when he's wrong.

Because he's mad, man.
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Re: Random Forum Thoughts.

Postby Lord Foul » Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:44 pm

So, instead of fighting him, the Avengers could have cured his madness... like, with a magic spell of healing or something, or one of the stones they had before he took it.

Not much of an action movie, but maybe more productive.
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Re: Random Forum Thoughts.

Postby Wihzerd » Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:08 am

Lord Foul wrote:Thanos' plan was utterly futile anyway. It really made no sense.

Statistics show that the population of our world has been doubling every 50 years (approximately). If you halve the population of the universe, all you have achieved is to set things back by 50 years. In another 50 years the universe will be right back to where you started when you killed all those beings.

What is 50 years in the lifespan of a near-immortal Titan? Nothing!

Stoopid plan! :naughty:

It's actually a LOT worse than that. Thanos didn't just get rid of half the people. He got rid of half of all LIFE. The survivors might be doomed to a mass extinction event.



Azhrei Vep wrote:
tombombodil wrote:Incidentally, maybe I don't understand how populations work, but couldn't he have just made it so that no species could have a number of kids equal to or greater than the number of individuals their species needs to procreate. So no human could have more than 1 biological kid.

Wouldn't that have the same effect as the snap in a few generations but without all the mass murder?

Possibly, I don't know the math, but it doesn't seem terribly unreasonable. Unlike the mad man who's determined to prove he was right in one specific instance on a cosmic level ... when he's wrong.

Because he's mad, man.
This is a plot element used in a couple of episodes of Stargate SG1. The Aschen prefer their plans of conquest to be gradual and stealthy, so they ally with other planets and wait a few generations while the advanced medical technology they freely shared covertly reduces fertility rates.

At this point you're just trading brutality for insidiousness.

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Re: Random Forum Thoughts.

Postby tombombodil » Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:20 am

Azhrei Vep wrote:
tombombodil wrote:Incidentally, maybe I don't understand how populations work, but couldn't he have just made it so that no species could have a number of kids equal to or greater than the number of individuals their species needs to procreate. So no human could have more than 1 biological kid.

Wouldn't that have the same effect as the snap in a few generations but without all the mass murder?

Possibly, I don't know the math, but it doesn't seem terribly unreasonable. Unlike the mad man who's determined to prove he was right in one specific instance on a cosmic level ... when he's wrong.

Because he's mad, man.
This is a plot element used in a couple of episodes of Stargate SG1. The Aschen prefer their plans of conquest to be gradual and stealthy, so they ally with other planets and wait a few generations for the advanced medical technology they freely shared to covertly reduce fertility rates.

At this point you're just trading brutality for insidiousness.[/quote]

Not exactly. As you pointed out it's trading brutality that doesn't work at all for insidiousness that does work. Not saying either is more "moral" than the other, (though DEATH might have qualms with that consideration) but per your own observations it's clearly not exactly the same.

Also i wonder if it counts as insidious if you just alter the fundamental state of the universe to lower fertility rates to a sustainable balance instead of doing it through years of subterfuge and unconsented to medical alterations. Although population is clearly not the only problem in earth or even in fantasy settings where galaxy spanning empires exist.

I do find it amusing that in Star Trek the problem Thanos was so desperate to resolve was fixed by matter replicators and raising the well being and education of all people to the point where overpopulation isn't an issue for multiple reasons.

Although I did wonder how realistate and living space on EARTH worked in Star Trek. Do they have limited children laws? Does any family who doesn't have property on earth just have to move to another planet? How could you come to own a house if there's no money? Where do people live? Are there just condos you sign up for and just get to have if they're vacant?
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Re: Random Forum Thoughts.

Postby Wihzerd » Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:26 am

tombombodil wrote:
Wihzerd wrote:
Azhrei Vep wrote:
tombombodil wrote:Incidentally, maybe I don't understand how populations work, but couldn't he have just made it so that no species could have a number of kids equal to or greater than the number of individuals their species needs to procreate. So no human could have more than 1 biological kid.

Wouldn't that have the same effect as the snap in a few generations but without all the mass murder?

Possibly, I don't know the math, but it doesn't seem terribly unreasonable. Unlike the mad man who's determined to prove he was right in one specific instance on a cosmic level ... when he's wrong.

Because he's mad, man.
This is a plot element used in a couple of episodes of Stargate SG1. The Aschen prefer their plans of conquest to be gradual and stealthy, so they ally with other planets and wait a few generations for the advanced medical technology they freely shared to covertly reduce fertility rates.

At this point you're just trading brutality for insidiousness.


Not exactly. As you pointed out it's trading brutality that doesn't work at all for insidiousness that does work. Not saying either is more "moral" than the other, (though DEATH might have qualms with that consideration) but per your own observations it's clearly not exactly the same.

Also i wonder if it counts as insidious if you just alter the fundamental state of the universe to lower fertility rates to a sustainable balance instead of doing it through years of subterfuge and unconsented to medical alterations. Although population is clearly not the only problem in earth or even in fantasy settings where galaxy spanning empires exist.

I do find it amusing that in Star Trek the problem Thanos was so desperate to resolve was fixed by matter replicators and raising the well being and education of all people to the point where overpopulation isn't an issue for multiple reasons.

Although I did wonder how realistate and living space on EARTH worked in Star Trek. Do they have limited children laws? Does any family who doesn't have property on earth just have to move to another planet? How could you come to own a house if there's no money? Where do people live? Are there just condos you sign up for and just get to have if they're vacant?

Actually, I suspect causing population decline through mass infertility would ALSO screw things up royally for everyone in the long run. Populations can gradually increase or decrease, but static equilibrium just doesn't happen. What is Thanos going to do when civilizations start declining out of existence? Does he have to spend the rest of eternity micromanaging species reproduction rates for the entire universe? I wouldn't call that a working plan.

As far as Star Trek is concerned, good luck trying to make sense of that.

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Re: Random Forum Thoughts.

Postby N00b13 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:52 pm

Not to get too political but the reduction of birth rate doesn't work. The one child policy in china does show one major flaw. 1 grandchild is supporting 2 parents and 4 grandparents. We also have a similar effect here in the US with our current batch of seniors. Society needs a certain level of reproduction to remain stable at least with everything that is happening now.

On star trek my understanding is it's a rep based economy. Picards family are well know winemakers so they use a big plot of land to make wine then gift it to the people who say they can make wine.

And yes there is population control in star trek. it's called the holodeck.
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Re: Random Forum Thoughts.

Postby tombombodil » Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:14 pm

N00b13 wrote:Not to get too political but the reduction of birth rate doesn't work. The one child policy in china does show one major flaw. 1 grandchild is supporting 2 parents and 4 grandparents. We also have a similar effect here in the US with our current batch of seniors. Society needs a certain level of reproduction to remain stable at least with everything that is happening now.

On star trek my understanding is it's a rep based economy. Picards family are well know winemakers so they use a big plot of land to make wine then gift it to the people who say they can make wine.

And yes there is population control in star trek. it's called the holodeck.


Yeah after thinking about it for a few minutes I realized there were hundreds of potentially awful side effects but didn't want to type up an essay, and also I wasn't really saying it would *work* broadly, just that it would be more effective at reducing over-consumption of natural resources long term than the snap.
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Re: Random Forum Thoughts.

Postby clintmemo » Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:55 am

N00b13 wrote:Not to get too political but the reduction of birth rate doesn't work. The one child policy in china does show one major flaw. 1 grandchild is supporting 2 parents and 4 grandparents. We also have a similar effect here in the US with our current batch of seniors. Society needs a certain level of reproduction to remain stable at least with everything that is happening now.

On star trek my understanding is it's a rep based economy. Picards family are well know winemakers so they use a big plot of land to make wine then gift it to the people who say they can make wine.

And yes there is population control in star trek. it's called the holodeck.


The big difference is that in the U.S. and in Japan, lower birth rates are a result of economic and social forces and not a government mandate. I also doubt that the 1 kid is supporting 6 ancestors. It's probably more like 3 supporting 4.
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Re: Random Forum Thoughts.

Postby N00b13 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:16 am

clintmemo wrote:
N00b13 wrote:Not to get too political but the reduction of birth rate doesn't work. The one child policy in china does show one major flaw. 1 grandchild is supporting 2 parents and 4 grandparents. We also have a similar effect here in the US with our current batch of seniors. Society needs a certain level of reproduction to remain stable at least with everything that is happening now.

On star trek my understanding is it's a rep based economy. Picards family are well know winemakers so they use a big plot of land to make wine then gift it to the people who say they can make wine.

And yes there is population control in star trek. it's called the holodeck.


The big difference is that in the U.S. and in Japan, lower birth rates are a result of economic and social forces and not a government mandate. I also doubt that the 1 kid is supporting 6 ancestors. It's probably more like 3 supporting 4.

You can look it up. It's called the 4-2-1 problem. At the moment it's only starting but as it stands now if nothing changes china will have a population composed of 1/4 60+ year old people by 2030.
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Re: Random Forum Thoughts.

Postby clintmemo » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:16 am

N00b13 wrote:
clintmemo wrote:
N00b13 wrote:Not to get too political but the reduction of birth rate doesn't work. The one child policy in china does show one major flaw. 1 grandchild is supporting 2 parents and 4 grandparents. We also have a similar effect here in the US with our current batch of seniors. Society needs a certain level of reproduction to remain stable at least with everything that is happening now.

On star trek my understanding is it's a rep based economy. Picards family are well know winemakers so they use a big plot of land to make wine then gift it to the people who say they can make wine.

And yes there is population control in star trek. it's called the holodeck.


The big difference is that in the U.S. and in Japan, lower birth rates are a result of economic and social forces and not a government mandate. I also doubt that the 1 kid is supporting 6 ancestors. It's probably more like 3 supporting 4.

You can look it up. It's called the 4-2-1 problem. At the moment it's only starting but as it stands now if nothing changes china will have a population composed of 1/4 60+ year old people by 2030.


They will just push the retirement age further out. (Do they even have mandatory retirement age?)
Also, it's not strictly one child. Some couples have one, some have two. Some even have three. There are some convoluted rules involved, as explained to us by our guide when I went there back in 2012 (?). First off, there are different ethnics groups - Hahn (?) Chinese, Mongol Chinese... I remember one of the rules was that if you were married, had two children and got divorced and remarried, you could have one more.

The idea is to have a steady population, not a declining one. That would mean each married couple having two kids, not one. That would make it a 4-2-2 problem, not a 4-2-1 problem.
I suspect that 4-2-1 is more of a Japanese problem since having an only child (or no children) has becoming the norm.

The same thing is happening here.
16% of the US is already over 65 so we are not that different. (I couldn't find a number for over 60.)
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