Bittersweet things go here

Off-topic discussion that doesn't fit anywhere else.
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BottledViolence
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Re: Bittersweet things go here

Postby BottledViolence » Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:10 am

clintmemo wrote:
BottledViolence wrote:Yeah, God forbid we allow the student athletes that are allowing the school to rake in millions to see any of that money.
Like Paulie in Goodfellas.


I think the real issue is that there shouldn't be this much money in college sports. In basketball and football, colleges are basically the farm teams for the pros. The top athletes aren't there to get a degree. They are there because it's what they need to go through to get a shot at the pros. What we have now creates perverse incentives and we end up with crap like this.
The purpose of a school should be educating students, not making big dollars in sports. The success of a school should be based on how well it's students do after graduation, not how many basketball season tickets they can sell.

Schools are a bureaucracy. They exist for their own benefit, not the student's. College sports are a symptom of the disease.

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Gyro LC
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Re: Bittersweet things go here

Postby Gyro LC » Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:39 am

John wrote:
clintmemo wrote:What I am way more interested in is if what, if anything, will happen to Adidas? That's where the money came from.


The biggest thing I've learned from this is how deep the tentacles of sports equipment companies slither into college athletics.

A friend who is a die-hard Villanova basketball fan told me "whew, that's a relief, this is an Adidas scandal and we're a Nike school".

Never knew there was such a thing as a Nike school.


Uh oh!

Nike's EYBL served with subpoena by federal investigators

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basket ... na-sources
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Ikoma
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Re: Bittersweet things go here

Postby Ikoma » Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:50 pm

Right. We should pay college athletes. I my opinion, doing so will reduce some of the ferver allumi and other fans feel once it is crystal clear the 'college' league is just a minor league and the students are not part of 'your' school.
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clintmemo
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Re: Bittersweet things go here

Postby clintmemo » Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:23 pm

Ikoma wrote:Right. We should pay college athletes. I my opinion, doing so will reduce some of the ferver allumi and other fans feel once it is crystal clear the 'college' league is just a minor league and the students are not part of 'your' school.


I used to believe that but now I disagree 1014%.
It's solving the wrong problem.

College should be about educating students for a future career. Once they become legal farm teams, the incentive will be to make them as profitable as possible. Sports becomes the primary concern. Money invested in and by the school will be put towards making the sports programs bigger and better instead of making education better. Those costs just get passed on to students in the forms of higher tuition. Costs go up. Education quality goes down.

Oh wait. That's exactly what's already been happening for the last 40 years.


See, I have a personal, bitter experience with this. I went to the University of Louisville (the school in trouble) back in the 1980's. Back then, basketball was already a powerhouse, winning the national championship in 1980 and 1986, but the football program was a joke. The school decided that needed to change that so they invested millions of dollars building a new football stadium, building new dorms for football players and a new athletic center. At the same time, they eliminated a computer science program because they did not have the funding for it.
Yes, I said a COMPUTER SCIENCE program.
Computers - you know, those things that changed the world over the last 30 years.
A university should be there to create workers that can get jobs and yet they eliminated the single most effective degree program from their curriculum, all because of football.

UofL was reasonably well-respected academic institution back then.
Now it has become a corrupt sports machine that is facing yet another scandal - the third for this basketball coach in 10 years - but, because of this and some idiocy by the state governor, they are in danger of losing their accreditation as a school altogether.

Well done guys.
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Ikoma
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Re: Bittersweet things go here

Postby Ikoma » Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:55 pm

clintmemo wrote:College should be about educating students for a future career. Once they become legal farm teams, the incentive will be to make them as profitable as possible. Sports becomes the primary concern. Money invested in and by the school will be put towards making the sports programs bigger and better instead of making education better. Those costs just get passed on to students in the forms of higher tuition. Costs go up. Education quality goes down.


Ah... but I totally agree with you! <grin> I just think that paying the athletes leads to colleges dropping programs - or rather moving them to separate but perhaps associated entities. Right now, a lot of time and money and effort are spent maintaining the fiction that the athletes are of necessity students.[1] If a new 'College Football League' were to spring up, separate from the NCAA, they would get all the great players - 'cause they could pay them. Universities would still be held to a student-athlete standard that works just fine for rugby, or swimming, etc. Even if universities WANTED to pay the athletes, they couldn't compete under the new rules since the CFL teams would have gotten rid of any pretense of class schedules or tutoring, etc. Plus, there would be Title IX issues. If we pay football players, do we have to pay gymnasts? That burden would crush any university out there. So you ultimately end up divorcing big money sports from universities, letting them each do their own thing. It would take time, but in my opinion, paying college athletes would end college/university big money sports.

[1] This shouldn't be taken as me saying all college athletes are NOT students. Some are - particularly in the non-money sports. But most in the big money programs are NOT.
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Re: Bittersweet things go here

Postby Knaight » Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:21 pm

Long term, the best option is for the NFL, NBA, NHL, etc. to fund their own minor leagues instead of the colleges doing it for them. It gets in the way of academics, it's deleterious to school culture, and the NFL et. all really need to stop getting freebies. They can afford their own stadiums, they can afford their own minor leagues, and they can even support highschool level programs that are currently handled by schools in some areas*.

Absent that though, if the universities are going to waste millions of dollars on coach salaries they could at least have the decency to trim the coach salaries a bit to pay the players something.

*Texas comes to mind.
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clintmemo
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Re: Bittersweet things go here

Postby clintmemo » Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:16 pm

Ikoma wrote:
clintmemo wrote:College should be about educating students for a future career. Once they become legal farm teams, the incentive will be to make them as profitable as possible. Sports becomes the primary concern. Money invested in and by the school will be put towards making the sports programs bigger and better instead of making education better. Those costs just get passed on to students in the forms of higher tuition. Costs go up. Education quality goes down.


Ah... but I totally agree with you! <grin> I just think that paying the athletes leads to colleges dropping programs - or rather moving them to separate but perhaps associated entities. Right now, a lot of time and money and effort are spent maintaining the fiction that the athletes are of necessity students.[1] If a new 'College Football League' were to spring up, separate from the NCAA, they would get all the great players - 'cause they could pay them. Universities would still be held to a student-athlete standard that works just fine for rugby, or swimming, etc. Even if universities WANTED to pay the athletes, they couldn't compete under the new rules since the CFL teams would have gotten rid of any pretense of class schedules or tutoring, etc. Plus, there would be Title IX issues. If we pay football players, do we have to pay gymnasts? That burden would crush any university out there. So you ultimately end up divorcing big money sports from universities, letting them each do their own thing. It would take time, but in my opinion, paying college athletes would end college/university big money sports.


Some stats and back of the envelope calculations:
http://rpiratings.com/NBA.php
There are about 4500 division 1 college basketball players.
There are 449 NBA players.
16% of this year's players are rookies.
16% of 449 is 72. 72 of 4500/4 is .064.
i.e. 6% of college players of a given graduating class (1/4 of 4500) made it to the NBA. 94% do not.

The problem you would run into with your idea is that within a generation you would have essentially fake schools pretending to be literal football schools and basketball schools - come to our school and get a bachelor's of football. The educations they would dole would be largely worthless because they would have to be so easy to ensure that star athletes always pass their classes. That means that 94% of "students" that don't make the NBA or NFL would make admittedly decent money for 4 years and then have essentially nothing.

That brings up a much more basic problem - funding! Who is going to pay these salaries? Not any of the other students. All the students at Basketball Tech are employees!

Football and basketball need to have minor leagues, like baseball does.
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Re: Bittersweet things go here

Postby Gyro LC » Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:29 pm

I'd wager most of those rookies didn't graduate. And then there's foreign players entering the NBA.
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Re: Bittersweet things go here

Postby Wihzerd » Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:58 pm

The bad news is that hurricane Nate is headed my way. The good news is that I'm far enough away from the gulf coast that the storm should be weakened considerably when it gets here. I don't expect my area to get flooded, but it's a very real possibility that my utilities might stop working for a few days.

I stocked up on non-refrigerated food earlier today, and I've got several gallons of water stored. That 5-gallon water cooler I bought for Dagorhir practice is paying off, as are the 3-gallon buckets I bought with the intention of being able to do laundry while camping at a Dagorhir event. I've got over 7 gallons of drinking water and 12 gallons for other purposes.

Here's hoping that I'm over-prepared, because otherwise this coming week is going to suck.

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BottledViolence
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Re: Bittersweet things go here

Postby BottledViolence » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:41 pm

Wihzerd wrote:The bad news is that hurricane Nate is headed my way. The good news is that I'm far enough away from the gulf coast that the storm should be weakened considerably when it gets here. I don't expect my area to get flooded, but it's a very real possibility that my utilities might stop working for a few days.

I stocked up on non-refrigerated food earlier today, and I've got several gallons of water stored. That 5-gallon water cooler I bought for Dagorhir practice is paying off, as are the 3-gallon buckets I bought with the intention of being able to do laundry while camping at a Dagorhir event. I've got over 7 gallons of drinking water and 12 gallons for other purposes.

Here's hoping that I'm over-prepared, because otherwise this coming week is going to suck.


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