Avengers: Age of Ultron

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Wayne
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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron

Postby Wayne » Mon May 04, 2015 6:00 pm

Noble Bear wrote:
clintmemo wrote:
I'm curious what they are going to do with the Hulk. Is he just going to be missing until the Avengers 3 or is he going to show up again before that?


Yeah, that one bothered me, also. Especially since Hulk/Widow is my 'ship.



I never would have thought that I would feel this way, but I completely agree. I was very pleased with the chemistry.
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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron

Postby tombombodil » Mon May 04, 2015 6:19 pm

Wayne wrote:
Noble Bear wrote:
clintmemo wrote:
I'm curious what they are going to do with the Hulk. Is he just going to be missing until the Avengers 3 or is he going to show up again before that?


Yeah, that one bothered me, also. Especially since Hulk/Widow is my 'ship.



I never would have thought that I would feel this way, but I completely agree. I was very pleased with the chemistry.


I though it felt a little forced, but that just might be because of how little screen time each character gets relatively. I feel like they could have done a better job of it in a Black Widow movie.
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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron

Postby clintmemo » Mon May 04, 2015 6:59 pm

I think there are 4 infinity stones in the MCU, but apparently, there are two gloves.

http://www.blastr.com/2015-5-4/marvels-kevin-feige-reveals-big-secret-behind-mcus-infinity-gauntlet
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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron

Postby clintmemo » Mon May 04, 2015 7:04 pm

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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron

Postby keithcurtis » Mon May 04, 2015 7:23 pm


Verrry interesting. I've never had a problem with Whedon's character deaths. As Coulson proves, death is a revolving door in the MCU. And I tend to agree with the death choices he's made. Yeah Wash died. And? Did they make any more movies or episodes? If it were necessary to bring him back, would it be impossible? No, and no. And death makes the stakes higher and the drama more meaningful, Nope. Kill away, Joss! ;)

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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron

Postby Noble Bear » Mon May 04, 2015 8:28 pm

keithcurtis wrote:

Verrry interesting. I've never had a problem with Whedon's character deaths. As Coulson proves, death is a revolving door in the MCU. And I tend to agree with the death choices he's made. Yeah Wash died. And? Did they make any more movies or episodes? If it were necessary to bring him back, would it be impossible? No, and no. And death makes the stakes higher and the drama more meaningful, Nope. Kill away, Joss! ;)





While my views on character death are evolving, I'm still fairly disgusted with it overall. Quicksilver is not Snape or Eddard Stark, and Weadon sure as fuck isn't George RR Martin. Killing a character in my view involves proper staging and structuring none of which Weadon understands or is willfully ignorant of. Death is serious, death has gravity and should be as well integrated into the character or plot as anything else that is also important to a narrative. Like one of my art teachers said "if you include it, it's part of the grade"; saying "because we think the plot demands it" or "because war is hell" is lazy as fuck bullshit. Quicksilvers death was arbitrary and haphazard, like all of Whedon's deaths.
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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron

Postby tombombodil » Mon May 04, 2015 8:34 pm

Noble Bear wrote:
keithcurtis wrote:

Verrry interesting. I've never had a problem with Whedon's character deaths. As Coulson proves, death is a revolving door in the MCU. And I tend to agree with the death choices he's made. Yeah Wash died. And? Did they make any more movies or episodes? If it were necessary to bring him back, would it be impossible? No, and no. And death makes the stakes higher and the drama more meaningful, Nope. Kill away, Joss! ;)





While my views on character death are evolving, I'm still fairly disgusted with it overall. Quicksilver is not Snape or Eddard Stark, and Weadon sure as fuck isn't George RR Martin. Killing a character in my view involves proper staging and structuring none of which Weadon understands or is willfully ignorant of. Death is serious, death has gravity and should be as well integrated into the character or plot as anything else that is also important to a narrative. Like one of my art teachers said "if you include it, it's part of the grade"; saying "because we think the plot demands it" or "because war is hell" is lazy as fuck bullshit. Quicksilvers death was arbitrary and haphazard, like all of Whedon's deaths.



While not exactly a defense, the source material and the creative culture that birthed it probably has the longest and most colorful record of bullshit character deaths in any medium ever :lol:. Death in stories is an extremely important tool that. When handled with care can really pull the rug out from under a complacent audience. When handled sloppily however, it not only squanders it's own power but lessens the impact of deaths from the past and in the future. I personally think the most effect and well staged death in any super hero movie was Rachel Dawes in The Dark Knight. It came totally out of left field, both on a story level, and on a meta level. It was internally consistent with the tone of the piece, wasn't contrived, effectively raised the stake, and justified reasoning behind some of the extreme actions taken by Bruce and others in the last third of the film.
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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron

Postby Noble Bear » Mon May 04, 2015 10:20 pm

tombombodil wrote:While not exactly a defense, the source material and the creative culture that birthed it probably has the longest and most colorful record of bullshit character deaths in any medium ever :lol:. Death in stories is an extremely important tool that. When handled with care can really pull the rug out from under a complacent audience. When handled sloppily however, it not only squanders it's own power but lessens the impact of deaths from the past and in the future. I personally think the most effect and well staged death in any superhero movie was Rachel Dawes in The Dark Knight. It came totally out of left field, both on a story level, and on a meta level. It was internally consistent with the tone of the piece, wasn't contrived, effectively raised the stake, and justified reasoning behind some of the extreme actions taken by Bruce and others in the last third of the film.


A couple of things: Sure, I could ask little Johnny if all his friends were shooting themselves with .48s if he thinks he should do that too; that just because there's a special place in hell set aside for Joe Quesada, doesn't let another writer/editor/producer off the hook for their own unforced fouls.

Here though, I can make the distinction that the problem in comics isn't the deaths themselves, but the reset button/revolving door that's applied to that death and even then, you can make or break a story on that. Keith mentioned our beloved Agent Coulson, which is an interesting case because while his death was nominally bullshit, his resurrection was interesting and led to further revelations about tech in the expanding universe. Whereas they might have just technobabbled their way out in a one-off device a la Star Trek, they made it integral and stayed consistent with it's use.
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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron

Postby keithcurtis » Mon May 04, 2015 10:48 pm

I think I can talk about Coulson out of spoiler tags. Especially since I haven't watched an episode of AoS since the break (but their on the DVR). I think I have the exact opposite feeling about Coulson's death and resurrection than you do. I felt his death made great sense dramatically, since the individual heroes needed to be kicked in the pants and made to realize that there were more important things than whatever they were obsessing over. I felt his Resurrection was basically the typical comic book trope of "This character is too popular to let go. Let's bring him back." Whether or not they did it well is immaterial. Both things happen in the genre all the time. In this case, I felt that the story needs (not the marketing, or fan needs" were better served by the death. AoS could have been made without Coulson as a character. It would have been a different story of course, but his death in the Avengers was definitely a good move. The actor himself prompted for it, over Whedon's initial wishes, and convinced him it was a good idea.

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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron

Postby MrElzebub » Mon May 04, 2015 10:57 pm

Noble Bear wrote:...saying "because we think the plot demands it" or "because war is hell" is lazy as fuck bullshit. Quicksilver's death was arbitrary and haphazard, like all of Whedon's deaths.


We have had this disagreement before IRL and I will respectfully disagree with you again. :mrgreen: You may disagree with Whedon's reason for doing it but I find the reason meaningful and purposeful. I will say it worked much better in Firefly. I remember watching Wash die and thinking "wow, if Wash can die anyone can, who else is next". It set the ensuing fight up to be a dangerous confrontation and for the finale of the Serenity universe it made a better climax. The death of Quicksilver did not work as well. By that point the fight was wrapping up. It did make for a strong character moment for Hawkeye, watching the fate that should have been his.
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