Stellaris

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Chad
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Re: Stellaris

Postby Chad » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:36 pm

tombombodil wrote:
Chad wrote:
John wrote:There are plenty of people who restart games constantly and never really go to the endgame.

No wrong fun.



I've done that on super long games where it's beyond obvious that I'm going to win and it's looking like it's going to be straight up an hour of letting the clock spin as I wait for a subject to get absorbed into me or a several planets to get done transforming or whatever.

Most of the time I wait out the win since I put so much time into it already.


Extremely relevant




If I didn't have two monitors and a smart phone I would just stop the clock and start something else without the win screen. The ability to let the game play at X3 speed with no input from me while surfing Reddit or reading the news allows me to actually see the win screen most of the time.

It's kind of the bane of the 4X genre, once you've figured out how to win you can... well win. In an action shooter it can be slow to start interesting middle and an absolute nail biter at the end.

For 4X games it's different (painting with a broad brush here, not all games are alike) in that the start is slow (you don't have much area, or tech, or resources) but interesting since there is so much unknown to explore. The slow start is usually where you set up the whole rest of the game. The middle is where all the intensity and action is, wars you fight, deals you make, the huge risks and their pay offs you reap or disasters you mitigated. The end is the low point, it's all clean up and sliding into victory. All of the high five nail biting victory happened hours ago in the mid game. If it had not you wouldn't be in the slow end game, you'd be either in mid game still or you've lost.

Action games have a more even curve of excitement decent rise, huge peak at the end. Whereas 4X games have a slow beginning rise, a pretty high mid, and a straight down fall to the bottom of the chart for the end with that curve being stretched out over a much longer timeline than most action games.

I would go so far as to say you shouldn't make a 4X game with the same excitement curve at an action game. Action games pace themselves so that the player can rest and take a breath with much shorter curves but higher levels of excitement. If you did that in 4X game but stretched over the same length as a 4X game usually takes players would get a lot of burn out.

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Re: Stellaris

Postby John » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:42 pm

They've been trying to design around this forever now. The first I remember was Rome Total War's civil war system (2004). Everybody wants there to be something toward the endgame that challenges a player who has presumably been snowballing more power since the start.

Stellaris has the fallen empires and then the crises of course. And now the khans.

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Re: Stellaris

Postby tombombodil » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:57 pm

Chad wrote:
tombombodil wrote:
Chad wrote:
John wrote:There are plenty of people who restart games constantly and never really go to the endgame.

No wrong fun.



I've done that on super long games where it's beyond obvious that I'm going to win and it's looking like it's going to be straight up an hour of letting the clock spin as I wait for a subject to get absorbed into me or a several planets to get done transforming or whatever.

Most of the time I wait out the win since I put so much time into it already.


Extremely relevant




If I didn't have two monitors and a smart phone I would just stop the clock and start something else without the win screen. The ability to let the game play at X3 speed with no input from me while surfing Reddit or reading the news allows me to actually see the win screen most of the time.

It's kind of the bane of the 4X genre, once you've figured out how to win you can... well win. In an action shooter it can be slow to start interesting middle and an absolute nail biter at the end.

For 4X games it's different (painting with a broad brush here, not all games are alike) in that the start is slow (you don't have much area, or tech, or resources) but interesting since there is so much unknown to explore. The slow start is usually where you set up the whole rest of the game. The middle is where all the intensity and action is, wars you fight, deals you make, the huge risks and their pay offs you reap or disasters you mitigated. The end is the low point, it's all clean up and sliding into victory. All of the high five nail biting victory happened hours ago in the mid game. If it had not you wouldn't be in the slow end game, you'd be either in mid game still or you've lost.

Action games have a more even curve of excitement decent rise, huge peak at the end. Whereas 4X games have a slow beginning rise, a pretty high mid, and a straight down fall to the bottom of the chart for the end with that curve being stretched out over a much longer timeline than most action games.

I would go so far as to say you shouldn't make a 4X game with the same excitement curve at an action game. Action games pace themselves so that the player can rest and take a breath with much shorter curves but higher levels of excitement. If you did that in 4X game but stretched over the same length as a 4X game usually takes players would get a lot of burn out.



There are a few newer 4x games that have avenues that allow for other outcomes than the slow dredge to victory. Endless Legend is a good one, with the faction quest victory's allowing a seriously under-equipped faction to steal victory from the jaws of defeat with some proper planning and a lot of forethought, but it's not anything the AI will ever do, it's more a way for you to win the game without actually being the most powerful faction in any of the measurable areas; science, diplomacy, industry etc.

I think pretty much the only time's a semi nail-biting ending happens organically in 4x is when there are two factions (you and one other) that just haven't had incentive to directly engage one another for about 100 turns and are both really close to your respective victory conditions. Then one of you has to try to throw a hail mary to pull clearly into the lead with maybe only 30-50 turns remaining.

But yeah overall I agree that we don't necessarily need to try to map the same interest curve to all game types. The linked video is more about adding uncertainty at every point of the game, not just "once you're already the clear victor".
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Re: Stellaris

Postby John » Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:50 am

well bring on the unbidden because having just got the jump drive on my first 2.0 playthrough it feels like I have fleets again instead of golf carts with a balsa wood model rocket strapped to the roof

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Re: Stellaris

Postby Wihzerd » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:32 am

On my Commonwealth of Man play-through a while back, I won by conquering most of my neighbors around the time the fallen empires were awakening. It was a race against the clock at that point, as neither I nor anyone else was in any position to challenge the fallen empires (especially after what I did to everyone else). I crowned myself the emperor of the galaxy, only for my empire to be presumably crushed between two greater powers. TECHNICALLY a victory!

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Re: Stellaris

Postby John » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:03 am

Yeah that was my strategy the first couple times I got the victory screen, except as applied to endgame crises rather than the FEs. I still don't have the neutral alliance cheev because I killed the FEs in 1.9 too quickly for the war in heaven to happen.

I have yet to fight an FE in 2.0. On my one and only file so far the jingoistic reclaimers woke up years ago but haven't actually gotten to the reclaiming part. IIRC in 1.x they would start thrall-demanding/attacking the neighbors pretty quick. But everything is so slow in 2.0 they probably have the FEs fart around for a while.

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Re: Stellaris

Postby Wihzerd » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:07 pm

Yeah, they started making demands and their borders began expanding. I had developed my technology and fleet strength to a point where one of them wasn't 'overwhelming' in both categories, but that didn't last long once they woke up. Fortunately, the last empire I needed to conquer was still weak from a previous war.

Funny enough, I tore up that empire in the previous war and got them agree to peace by letting me vassalize their federation ally, the United Nations of Earth (for all the sense that makes). I managed to reunite humanity under one rule by killing only the alien scum. :twisted:

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Re: Stellaris

Postby John » Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:23 am

200 corvettes with torpedos can kill one of the ~110k contingency expansion fleets but can't take down the ~250k core defenders. We're at a bit of a stalemate. The battles are sort of funny, the corvettes don't do any damage until they're right on top of the contingency but once the damage starts it's over in seconds.

I already have the contingency cheevs so I might just write this file off as my 2.0 learning file and start over again.


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Re: Stellaris

Postby Chad » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:24 pm

Also, Rouge Servertiors:



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