Random Video Game Thoughts

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McNutcase
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Re: Random Video Game Thoughts

Postby McNutcase » Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:04 pm

Sith_Mafia wrote:new warhammer 40k co-op shooter from the Vermintide devs, fatshark :shock:

Well THAT fits an intersection in my Venn diagram.
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BottledViolence
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Re: Random Video Game Thoughts

Postby BottledViolence » Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:45 pm

Sith_Mafia wrote:new warhammer 40k co-op shooter from the Vermintide devs, fatshark :shock:

So it's Deathwing in a hive with guardsmen fighting chaos? And Deathwing was Vermintide in spacehulks with space Marines fighting tyranids. And Vermintide was Left for dead in GW's Warhammer setting fighting Skaven. What was L4D a rip-off of, and when does the new game come out because I'm definitely getting it...?

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Re: Random Video Game Thoughts

Postby tombombodil » Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:19 pm

BottledViolence wrote:
Sith_Mafia wrote:new warhammer 40k co-op shooter from the Vermintide devs, fatshark :shock:

So it's Deathwing in a hive with guardsmen fighting chaos? And Deathwing was Vermintide in spacehulks with space Marines fighting tyranids. And Vermintide was Left for dead in GW's Warhammer setting fighting Skaven. What was L4D a rip-off of, and when does the new game come out because I'm definitely getting it...?


Join the human-centipede :lol:

Well Left 4 Dead was a Valve game so it didn't really ripping anything off.
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Re: Random Video Game Thoughts

Postby McNutcase » Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:48 am

tombombodil wrote:
BottledViolence wrote:
Sith_Mafia wrote:new warhammer 40k co-op shooter from the Vermintide devs, fatshark :shock:

So it's Deathwing in a hive with guardsmen fighting chaos? And Deathwing was Vermintide in spacehulks with space Marines fighting tyranids. And Vermintide was Left for dead in GW's Warhammer setting fighting Skaven. What was L4D a rip-off of, and when does the new game come out because I'm definitely getting it...?


Join the human-centipede :lol:

Well Left 4 Dead was a Valve game so it didn't really ripping anything off.

I think L4D started out as a gonzo method of playing Counter-Strike, with a team of humans against a horde of bots with the bots only having knives.
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Re: Random Video Game Thoughts

Postby tombombodil » Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:13 am

I mean Valve made counterstrike too didn't they? All games have inspirations or are evolved from something obviously, but L4D was certainly a very seminal game in the traditional sense of the word.
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Re: Random Video Game Thoughts

Postby BottledViolence » Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:31 pm

Why do so many games with a co-op mode limit the number of players to 4?

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Re: Random Video Game Thoughts

Postby tombombodil » Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:44 pm

BottledViolence wrote:Why do so many games with a co-op mode limit the number of players to 4?


It depends on the implied alternative. If you're asking why do they cap it at 4 instead of 5? Probably just convention, or sticking to the best practices of the solid design of previous co-op games. If you're asking why they cap it at 4 instead of 8 or more I can think of TONS of reasons.
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Re: Random Video Game Thoughts

Postby Wihzerd » Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:58 pm

BottledViolence wrote:Why do so many games with a co-op mode limit the number of players to 4?

As a gameplay element:
I think the devs want you to have a reasonable chance of success, but to always feel the pressure of being hopelessly outnumbered. It's like the old parent joke about having three or more kids, but only two arms. I get similar impressions while playing tower defense games, always feeling like I don't have enough resources to build the defenses I need.

As a story telling tool:
I don't know about other games, but the Left 4 Dead series put hefty emphasis on giving each survivor an interesting personality. It's a lot easier to divide the spotlight between 4 well-written characters than 8. Think about all the advantages of GMing a campaign for a small group of PCs instead of a large one.

Having said that, I certainly wouldn't mind having the option to play in a larger group. Back in the day, I very much so would have liked to use a modded server with all 8 survivors in Left 4 Dead 2.

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Re: Random Video Game Thoughts

Postby BottledViolence » Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:29 am

tombombodil wrote:
BottledViolence wrote:Why do so many games with a co-op mode limit the number of players to 4?


It depends on the implied alternative. If you're asking why do they cap it at 4 instead of 5? Probably just convention, or sticking to the best practices of the solid design of previous co-op games. If you're asking why they cap it at 4 instead of 8 or more I can think of TONS of reasons.


I can understand there being a practical limit, but convention or "that's how X did it, so we'll copy that" seems more likely. "We made five characters, pick four to use. Fuck you, no you can't play all of them, that's not how left for dead did it!" :lol:

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Re: Random Video Game Thoughts

Postby BottledViolence » Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:37 am

Wihzerd wrote:
BottledViolence wrote:Why do so many games with a co-op mode limit the number of players to 4?

As a gameplay element:
I think the devs want you to have a reasonable chance of success, but to always feel the pressure of being hopelessly outnumbered. It's like the old parent joke about having three or more kids, but only two arms. I get similar impressions while playing tower defense games, always feeling like I don't have enough resources to build the defenses I need.

As a story telling tool:
I don't know about other games, but the Left 4 Dead series put hefty emphasis on giving each survivor an interesting personality. It's a lot easier to divide the spotlight between 4 well-written characters than 8. Think about all the advantages of GMing a campaign for a small group of PCs instead of a large one.

Having said that, I certainly wouldn't mind having the option to play in a larger group. Back in the day, I very much so would have liked to use a modded server with all 8 survivors in Left 4 Dead 2.

With limited resources, and unlimited baddies, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to scale for different sizes of groups. They already have different difficulty settings.

I can definitely see the "story" aspect. I don't agree with it, but I can see it mattering to a developer. :lol: I don't think anyone really cares about the story on their multiplayer runs through Vermintide or L4D. Story probably has more of an impact on single player, but most people just want to slaughter zombies or rats with their friends and you're screwed if you happen to have more than 3 friends.

I like the quips between the characters, Vermintide does a great job there, but they already have the dialogue, they have the interactions, why not let us use all five? Hell, Kruber even makes a comment about it in Vermintide 2!


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