pathfinder class debate

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Triggerhappy938
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Re: pathfinder class debate

Postby Triggerhappy938 » Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:50 am

Is the leader we are deposing any sort of combat threat?
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Re: pathfinder class debate

Postby Argentum » Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:50 am

v2 wants the PCs to bring v1 under their rule, convence v1 that their leader is bad, and have the leader deposed as ruler.

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Re: pathfinder class debate

Postby Argentum » Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:54 am

lets say the leader himself is a 3rd level fighter. he also has 10 guards who are 1st level warriors.

v2 has no PC classed inhabitants. they have 5 1st level warriors however.

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Re: pathfinder class debate

Postby Triggerhappy938 » Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:03 am

I'm not the wizard-scholar VA, VV, or Freemage are, but here's my solution.

Go into his house at night (Knock, lvl2 spell), if he is awake, disable with Sleep (lvl 1 spell), if he is asleep, cast sleep anyway to be safe. Bind him with rope or kill him as your morality dictates. Next morning, Alter Self yourself into leader, explain to the populace that you are leaving, and that you are leaving the town in the hands of v2. Leave, bringing the former leader of town to the leader of v2 if he is alive, or bury him outside of town if he is dead.

If there are guards in the house, use Ghost Sound (lvl 0) to draw them out back, Sleep them when they get there. Though if they are acting as his personal bodyguard overnight, I'd wager they are going to be more than neutral to him.

That's assuming there isn't a leader of the guard. In which case go up to him, charm person, inform him that the town leader is a thief who has been stealing grain from neighboring town, and should be arrested.

And I don't even play Wizard, typically. That's just stuff I know off the top of my head from the core book. There is probably a better, more Summon Monster heavy solution to this. I'll leave VA and the others to that.
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Re: pathfinder class debate

Postby Argentum » Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:15 am

Good start-

I think that it would be appropriate that bluff checks need to be used both for convincing v1 that you are the leader since even though you look like him alterself does not mean you sound like him and as you slept him in his sleep you do not know what he sounds like.

Also I would think a bluff check would be needed to draw all the guards to the location of your choosing.

Do you think that those are fair points?

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Re: pathfinder class debate

Postby VaMinion » Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:19 am

For giggles because I did the math: without any expenditure of resources, the wizard is sitting at +10 diplomacy to the rogue's +9. The gulf gets larger if I actually start casting anything besides cantrips.

Argentum wrote:v2 wants the PCs to bring v1 under their rule, convence v1 that their leader is bad, and have the leader deposed as ruler.

lets say the leader himself is a 3rd level fighter. he also has 10 guards who are 1st level warriors.

v2 has no PC classed inhabitants. they have 5 1st level warriors however.


For ease of use I'm going to make notes where class is irrelevant to what's being done. If both classes can do something equally well, I'm not counting it either way.

The party arranges a private meeting with the leader of v1 (both). There are a few ways to proceed:

1 - Diplomacy. Advantage: Wizard. (+10 vs +9, assuming wizard is built for diplomacy)
2 - Bluff. Advantage: Wizard. (+10 vs +9, assuming wizard is built for bluff).
3 - Sneak into V1 mayor's house in the middle of the night and steal something important enough to blackmail him into surrendering. The rogue can stealth, the wizard can invis. I'll call this one equal.
4 - Run a scam on V1.

What scam? Well that depends. I'm still assuming the wizard has a diplomacy or bluff that's comparable to the rogue's.

I could disguise myself as V1's mayor. If the rogue's trained in disguise, he's got a +9 base. The wizard, meanwhile, has a +10 from casting Disguise Self with absolutely zero skill ranks. If, for whatever reason, he's trained in disguise the difference between rogue and wizard only goes up from there. Advantage: Wizard.

I could run a smear campaign that the mayor's been seen consorting with devils or that the gods have declared he or anyone who consorts with him is a sinner. The rogue could combine the whisper campaign with sapping someone in the night and making sure the body is never found, but the wizard can summon a Lemure and have it chase villagers that have displeased the mayor. Advantage is to the wizard, because if it's done right I never need to make a single social roll.

If I want to brute force, I cast an extended Charm Person on V1's mayor. That gets me 8 hours of him being friendly to me, at which point I convince him to leave. If I'm the rogue, I just sap him and carry him off in the night. I'd call this a wash, but Charm means I can have V1's mayor publicly and legally surrender V1's leadership to V2. So equivalent ish, but slight advantage to the wizard.

I'm sure there's other options for the wizard, but I can't think of them. But overall? The wizard's going to have a much easier time of it.
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Re: pathfinder class debate

Postby Triggerhappy938 » Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:24 am

VA, for the sake of argument, lets assume you didn't initially build the wizard specifically for diplomacy. Presuming you were going for the I SOLVE ALL THE PROBLEMS wizard, where would your skill points be, and how would that affect your solution?
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Re: pathfinder class debate

Postby Argentum » Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:27 am

hey all, its 2:30 here and i have to wake up fairly early tomorrow. Please do not assume that my heading out means i am not answering your questions. Ill post again tomorrow.

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Re: pathfinder class debate

Postby Triggerhappy938 » Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:28 am

Argentum wrote:hey all, its 2:30 here and i have to wake up fairly early tomorrow. Please do not assume that my heading out means i am not answering your questions. Ill post again tomorrow.


No problem, nothing about these forums demand that responses be within a certain time limit.
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Re: pathfinder class debate

Postby VaMinion » Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:50 am

Triggerhappy938 wrote:VA, for the sake of argument, lets assume you didn't initially build the wizard specifically for diplomacy. Presuming you were going for the I SOLVE ALL THE PROBLEMS wizard, where would your skill points be, and how would that affect your solution?


If we're talking how I would do it: I have 6 skill points (7 if human). I'm going to have Knowledge(Arcana) and Spellcraft. I'd probably pick up Knowledge(Planes) and maybe Knowledge(Nature or Dungeoneering). I generally leave Religion to the holy types in the group because I like intentionally leaving holes in my skills so that other people can fill in as necessary. So if there's no face and my charisma's not entirely garbage? Yeah, there's a decent chance I'd pick up either Bluff or Diplomacy. More likely bluff, because I hate the diplomacy skill with the passion of 1000 suns.

That said, I'm sure there's optimal skill choices out there I'm unfamiliar with. That's just how I'd approach it.

How would it affect my solution? It wouldn't change much. I'd default to either "Summon devils to chase people in the night", "Charm the mayor", or the "Steal and blackmail" plan.

But if I was going to go social caster, I'd probably grab Sorcerer, Bard, or even a Witch before I'd take a wizard.
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