pathfinder class debate

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Argentum
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pathfinder class debate

Postby Argentum » Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:30 pm

This is a continuation of a discussion found in "Pathfinder Advanced Class debate". If you want to catch up, please refer to that thread.

Trigger-

1. I'm sorry that I irritated you by misreading your statement and thinking you had made a joke and then replying with a joke.
2. I did try earlier to change the topic back to the OP and I suggested that people could PM me or we could move the topic to another thread. As people kept on asking me questions, I did not want to be rude and ignore them.
3. While I did willfully misconstrue your previous statement in order to make a joke because I was under the wrong impression that you had made a joke, I don't see where I have done that in previously.
4. If I have not replied to every aspect to every post that was not out of malice. I am having the discussion with multiple people on the other side. I am also posting here while doing other work so it is possible that I did not answer every question.
5. I have also provided “hard evidence” to my point of view. I try to answer every question posed to me and if I do not, please remind me of the question and I will address it.
6. Disagreeing with a position, stating that I have answered a question previously, and/or clarifying my position does not mean I am “doing all I can to stop a productive discussion”. It just means that I disagree with a position, answered the question previously, or am clarifying my position. Disagreement does not equal obstinacy.

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Triggerhappy938
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Re: pathfinder class debate

Postby Triggerhappy938 » Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:39 pm

All right, against my better judgement, I'll give this a chance.

Just so we start off nice and clear, please state what assertion you are trying to make in this debate, followed by the evidence you have to support it. You don't have to write it all up fresh. If you need to quote from the previous thread, that is fine.
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VaMinion
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Re: pathfinder class debate

Postby VaMinion » Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:44 pm

Triggerhappy938 wrote:All right, against my better judgement, I'll give this a chance.

Just so we start off nice and clear, please state what assertion you are trying to make in this debate, followed by the evidence you have to support it. You don't have to write it all up fresh. If you need to quote from the previous thread, that is fine.


And for the love of god, if you're operating on some assumptions (e.g. "The level 7 rogue has no magical equipment"), state them. I'm not against discussions like this, but nothing drives me crazier than leaving the situation ambiguous and only clarifying when you're contradicted.
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Re: pathfinder class debate

Postby Argentum » Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:57 pm

Well though the conversation went to several different topics, I think the core of what i was originally stating was simply that it is not the case that wizards can solve in game challenges better than non magic using classes 100% of the time.

One of my points, which I will state as a jumping off point, is that wizard may have spells that might solve a situation, but as they have a limited amount of spells they can memorize and cast in a day, and the non magic casting class is able to use their abilities over and over, a mundane class can offer solutions more times/over a longer period than wizards.

VA, I will try to make clear all my assumptions, but it is safe to say that if i do not mention that something is the case (that the rouge has magic items) that I am not assuming it is the case.

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Re: pathfinder class debate

Postby VaMinion » Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:01 am

Argentum wrote:One of my points, which I will state as a jumping off point, is that wizard may have spells that might solve a situation, but as they have a limited amount of spells they can memorize and cast in a day, and the non magic casting class is able to use their abilities over and over, a mundane class can offer solutions more times/over a longer period than wizards.


Which is so dependent on so many factors it's a meaningless statement in a vacuum. From level 1 to level 5ish? Sure. Level 8 onward? Maybe. Level 13+? Uses/day ceases to be a meaningful metric.
Last edited by VaMinion on Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: pathfinder class debate

Postby Argentum » Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:01 am

Let me state here that I am not assuming the characters are 17th level or something like that. I am assuming that my argument is true, at the very least, for characters 1st through 10th level.

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Re: pathfinder class debate

Postby Viletta Vadim » Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:07 am

Argentum wrote:Well though the conversation went to several different topics, I think the core of what i was originally stating was simply that it is not the case that wizards can solve in game challenges better than non magic using classes 100% of the time.

That is a meaningless and silly platform that proves nothing and is no way inconsistent with the fact that magic is God in D&D.
Argentum wrote:One of my points, which I will state as a jumping off point, is that wizard may have spells that might solve a situation, but as they have a limited amount of spells they can memorize and cast in a day, and the non magic casting class is able to use their abilities over and over, a mundane class can offer solutions more times/over a longer period than wizards.

Hit points are a more limiting asset than spell slots past level 3 or so, making the ability to repeatedly use abilities severely overvalued in this case, especially when the main way to restore hit points on the time scale in which the ability to use abilities over and over again in a single day is relevant is via magic.
Argentum wrote:VA, I will try to make clear all my assumptions, but it is safe to say that if i do not mention that something is the case (that the rouge has magic items) that I am not assuming it is the case.

Magic items are a fundamental assumption of the system past the lowest levels. Assuming the Rogue does not have magic items, then expecting others to assume the same because you didn't say they have items, is like expecting others to assume they don't have feats because you didn't say they have any.

Wealth-by-level at 7th level is 23,500 gp. In a low magic game? Half that.

There ain't a whole lot you can buy for an appreciable chunk of that change that ain't magic.
Argentum wrote:Let me state here that I am not assuming the characters are 17th level or something like that. I am assuming that my argument is true, at the very least, for characters 1st through 10th level.

Yeah, no. At level 10, the mundanes have already dropped so far below the radar it isn't funny anymore.
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Re: pathfinder class debate

Postby Argentum » Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:15 am

Vv, It is ok if you do not want to participate in the discussion.

So for instance, I am currently playing a 4th level rogue with the following stats.

Str 12, dex 16, con 10, int 14, wis 10, cha 14.

My rouge does not have any magic items.

Now lets say the goal is to convince the people of a village that their leader is a bad guy and they should raise up against him.

It is my position that my rouge, with a diplomacy of 10 would better be able to convince the villagers of this fact than a wizard of the same level could.

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Re: pathfinder class debate

Postby VaMinion » Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:18 am

Argentum wrote:It is my position that my rouge, with a diplomacy of 10 would better be able to convince the villagers of this fact than a wizard of the same level could.


I've learned from the previous thread...clarify this. There's a lot of responses I could provide, but they depend on things you've left up in the air. Off the top of my head:

"Better be able to convince the villagers"...better how? What exactly are we trying to convince them of beyond the fact the leader is "bad"? Is the solution narrative or it is purely coming down to who can roll a higher diplomacy check?

EDIT: Added something for clarity.
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Re: pathfinder class debate

Postby Argentum » Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:22 am

what points would you need me to clarify?

I am making this claim about any wizard of 4th level that I can think of. I am assuming the villagers have 10s for all their stats and do not have access to magic.

btw, i was in error, my rouges diplomacy is 9.

edit: in response to your edit.

Lets say that the end goal is to have the villagers rise up against their leader.
Last edited by Argentum on Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.


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