Pathfinder House Rules: Updating Rogue

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Triggerhappy938
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Re: Pathfinder House Rules: Updating Rogue

Postby Triggerhappy938 » Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:23 am

Ahh, yes. Typically the only answer to blindsight is to simply not be within range of it.
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Re: Pathfinder House Rules: Updating Rogue

Postby Azhrei Vep » Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:58 am

Triggerhappy938 wrote:Ahh, yes. Typically the only answer to blindsight is to simply not be within range of it.

Depends on the type of blindsight. For example, the spell "Echolocation", which grants Blindsight to 40ft, can be foiled by silence.

... For the most part, though, Blindsight will indeed fuck you. Which is why once I had access to Echolocation, I didn't go anywhere without it.
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Re: Pathfinder House Rules: Updating Rogue

Postby clintmemo » Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:56 am

VaMinion wrote:
DocTWisted wrote:What level(s) do shot on the run and spring attack become available? The first allows a ranged attack while moving, and the second allows you to move in, make a melee attack, and retreat again without invoking AoO.


The earliest a rogue can take spring attack is 6, but that involves picking up dodge and mobility as well. On top of that it only prevents the guy you stabbed from taking the AOO. So the buddy of his that you have to move past is free to swing at you anyway.

Shot on the run, same deal. Dodge, mobility, point blank shot. And unless you have something nifty going on you're probably not getting your sneak attack dice on that shot.



Remember that suggestion I made about giving rogues lots of feats at low levels?
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Re: Pathfinder House Rules: Updating Rogue

Postby Gyro LC » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:03 pm

clintmemo wrote:Remember that suggestion I made about giving rogues lots of feats at low levels?


Along those lines, maybe add ranger-like combat styles. One gives spring attack early, another gives shot on the run early, and a third give skill focus at regular intervals for those who wish to be true skill monkeys.
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Re: Pathfinder House Rules: Updating Rogue

Postby VaMinion » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:13 pm

Gyro LC wrote:Along those lines, maybe add ranger-like combat styles. One gives spring attack early, another gives shot on the run early, and a third give skill focus at regular intervals for those who wish to be true skill monkeys.


Shot on the run is dead weight. Spring attack is a trap in any multi-target situation with reasonably intelligent enemies. Skill focus is non-helpful because of the aforementioned "Anyone can have any skill" issue.

One possibility could be to give rogues a version of the Skirmish ability from 3.5. If the rogue moves more than X distance and attacks, they get sneak attack regardless of positioning. That at least makes both spring attack and shot on the run worth having.
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Re: Pathfinder House Rules: Updating Rogue

Postby clintmemo » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:29 pm

Spring Attack only really helps if it means "jumping to a place where I can flank, get a flank (sneak) attack and then jump back." This gets much more useful if you increase your movement rate.
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Re: Pathfinder House Rules: Updating Rogue

Postby DocTWisted » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:29 pm

Azhrei Vep wrote:
DocTWisted wrote:My personal experiences as a rouge in Pathfinder have been awful. Some of it has been the DM's fault, because he's filled dungeons with things that can't be sneak attacked like plant monsters, animated objects, and golems. Without the sneak attack bonus dice, he often can't penetrate DR with the consistency of fighting classes.


It also helps to play the game right: You can sneak attack (and crit!) plants and golems. And Undead. You didn't mention them, but people commonly think you can't sneak attack or crit them too.

The only enemy types that are immune, excepting special cases within each category, are Incorporeal (unless you have Ghost Touch weapons, or are incorporeal yourself, then it's game on!), Elemental, Ooze, and Swarms, sort of (they can't be flanked, which makes it virtually impossible to sneak attack them. Many swarms are immune to weapon damage anyway, so... eh). Proteans have a 50% chance to ignore sneak attacks and crits, but they're freaky and weird.


See rule zero. This DM is an old school grognard (and a bit of a dick). He says if it's not alive AND flesh, precision damage can not apply.

Among the things my rogue was killed or nearly killed by were:

A giant man eating plant (two vine attacks with crazy high to hit bonus, auto grapple attempt with each hit with crazy high CMB bonus, "trap" that did acid damage to me and my gear and required a full round action escape artist check to free myself, which then gave it another opportunity to pummel, grab, and gnaw on me. I was really angry over that. )

A magically animated witch's cauldron (It's cast iron, there are no weak points. )

A swarm of piranhas (barely survived this one. )

A large golem made of worked stone (no vital spots to hit)

Two medium clay elementals followed by a large clay elemental that beat me to death after I sheathed my rapier and asked nicely to be allowed to leave the way I came because I didn't want any trouble with him.

A giant slug that I could hurt somewhat, but it was positioned in a choke point to prevent flanking and would not be lured further out (survived with 2 hit points left)

As previously mentioned, most of these had a note that they could either smell or read the vibrations of approaching prey, so Stealth (and invisibility) were futile.
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Re: Pathfinder House Rules: Updating Rogue

Postby VaMinion » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:31 pm

And all of those examples are why I dropped my rogue in favor of a zen archer.

Granted, I'm playing a witch now, but that's not entirely my fault.
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Re: Pathfinder House Rules: Updating Rogue

Postby Azhrei Vep » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:40 pm

DocTWisted wrote:
Azhrei Vep wrote:
DocTWisted wrote:My personal experiences as a rouge in Pathfinder have been awful. Some of it has been the DM's fault, because he's filled dungeons with things that can't be sneak attacked like plant monsters, animated objects, and golems. Without the sneak attack bonus dice, he often can't penetrate DR with the consistency of fighting classes.


It also helps to play the game right: You can sneak attack (and crit!) plants and golems. And Undead. You didn't mention them, but people commonly think you can't sneak attack or crit them too.

The only enemy types that are immune, excepting special cases within each category, are Incorporeal (unless you have Ghost Touch weapons, or are incorporeal yourself, then it's game on!), Elemental, Ooze, and Swarms, sort of (they can't be flanked, which makes it virtually impossible to sneak attack them. Many swarms are immune to weapon damage anyway, so... eh). Proteans have a 50% chance to ignore sneak attacks and crits, but they're freaky and weird.


See rule zero. This DM is an old school grognard (and a bit of a dick). He says if it's not alive AND flesh, precision damage can not apply.

Among the things my rogue was killed or nearly killed by were:

A giant man eating plant (two vine attacks with crazy high to hit bonus, auto grapple attempt with each hit with crazy high CMB bonus, "trap" that did acid damage to me and my gear and required a full round action escape artist check to free myself, which then gave it another opportunity to pummel, grab, and gnaw on me. I was really angry over that. )

A magically animated witch's cauldron (It's cast iron, there are no weak points. )

A swarm of piranhas (barely survived this one. )

A large golem made of worked stone (no vital spots to hit)

Two medium clay elementals followed by a large clay elemental that beat me to death after I sheathed my rapier and asked nicely to be allowed to leave the way I came because I didn't want any trouble with him.

A giant slug that I could hurt somewhat, but it was positioned in a choke point to prevent flanking and would not be lured further out (survived with 2 hit points left)

As previously mentioned, most of these had a note that they could either smell or read the vibrations of approaching prey, so Stealth (and invisibility) were futile.

Stop playing with a cock. Rule Zero is bullshit, and anyone who hides behind it should have the stupid slapped out of them. There's your rogue fix.

Gyro LC wrote:Along those lines, maybe add ranger-like combat styles.
That said, I like this idea.

Something else that can be helpful for rogues who aren't getting fucked by shitty GMs: The Rogue Talent "Ninja Trick". Use it to take the Ninja Trick "Pressure Point". Start doing ability damage with your sneak attacks, bitch!
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Re: Pathfinder House Rules: Updating Rogue

Postby Triggerhappy938 » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:50 pm

Thank you Azh. I was due for a new signature.
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