Episode 461 - back to the gold box

Anything related to our regular or bonus episodes.
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Lord Foul
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Re: Episode 461 - back to the gold box

Postby Lord Foul » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:18 pm

Gyro LC wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:I know I'm going to live to regret this... but I feel compelled to defend Ashtray in this... :problem:

I haven't listened to the episode. I don't know if it has even been released to us mere mortals yet. That doesn't matter. What matters is whether or not it is acceptable to be openly critical of Fear the Boot. Now, Ashtray is a dick, we all know that, but noone is going to doubt for a moment that he is also a rabid fanboy of the Boot. When he is moved to post a critical assessment of an episode it is time for the hosts to take note, and question whether they have let their usually high standards slip. Nobody is perfect, and occasional poor episodes are inevitable. But if all we are allowed to present is blind adoration then that does nobody any good.

I believe the hosts are big enough to take a little constructive criticism.


I don't think the FtB hosts would object to constructive criticism given in an encouraging or respectful manner. Perhaps some of the hosts have a relationship with him where they don't mind the tone because that's just "Az being Az." I don't know. I do know that none of that was constructive, encouraging, or respectful.

I understand your point of view. I just think that in Ashtray's case we can't realistically expect normal levels of politeness and respect. It's a bit like expecting someone with Tourette's to be polite and not use profanity. It isn't going to happen. I think most of the hosts know him well enough to read between the dickery and translate it into normal terms.

I'm not sure I'm helping here, so I'll bow out of this now. :shifty:
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John
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Re: Episode 461 - back to the gold box

Postby John » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:20 pm

DaleMcCoy wrote:Incase you hadn't heard, they also have the original X-Wing and TIE Fighter games there as well.


TIE Fighter is old and rusty and creaky at this point but it's still one of my favorites of all time.

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Chad
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Re: Episode 461 - back to the gold box

Postby Chad » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:46 pm

Lord Foul wrote:I know I'm going to live to regret this... but I feel compelled to defend Ashtray in this... :problem:

I haven't listened to the episode. I don't know if it has even been released to us mere mortals yet. That doesn't matter. What matters is whether or not it is acceptable to be openly critical of Fear the Boot. Now, Ashtray is a dick, we all know that, but noone is going to doubt for a moment that he is also a rabid fanboy of the Boot. When he is moved to post a critical assessment of an episode it is time for the hosts to take note, and question whether they have let their usually high standards slip. Nobody is perfect, and occasional poor episodes are inevitable. But if all we are allowed to present is blind adoration then that does nobody any good.

I believe the hosts are big enough to take a little constructive criticism.



I wasn't planning on commenting on this subject but you bring up and externally important question that needs to be answered every time it's asked no matter what the community or reason.

In this case: Are community members (regardless of who they are) allowed to criticize Fear the Boot?

Unequivocally the answer is yes.

Not only is it allowed the very concept that it has to be allowed and isn't a default right that some communities on the internet choose not to have rankles me.

We ask for feed back, we want feedback, we need feedback. Sometimes feed back stings but that sting is our ego. I think we are much better in our reaction to negative feedback than we were ten years ago.

Now for the stickier part: Does the criticism need to be constructive?

I think that as reasonable adults we can generally agree that it should be. The problem that I see is two fold:

1. What is constructive? I think we can give tons of examples and I think there would be a lot of disagreement.

2. If we all agree on what constructive criticism is and is not then what does that mean, that we make rules enforcing adherence to certain types of criticism while punishing others?

If we make rules saying criticism has to be constructive then people will ask us to define what that means (or if we don't define anything then precedence will take over the rules). Once we define them then people can start pushing the envelope. We did this dance when we had to define what nudity was back in the day.

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Lord Foul
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Re: Episode 461 - back to the gold box

Postby Lord Foul » Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:09 pm

Thanks for that, Chad.

I believe that whether or not criticism is ultimately constructive is a function of how it is received and acted upon, not how it is given.

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Mikel
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Re: Episode 461 - back to the gold box

Postby Mikel » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:40 pm

Constructive criticism is when you're giving actual information beyond "I hated it" and I don't think giving someone a pass to be an asshole is okay. It still makes them an asshole.

I direct theatre in this town and a lot of people know me. Even if I hate their show, I'l only tell them, "How much honesty do you want?" If they keep pushing for my opinion. Even then, if I go into what I didn't like, I don't just rail against them and say how much I hated it. I'll discuss the why.

I'm all for constructive criticism. I'm less for just being an ass.




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Knaight
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Re: Episode 461 - back to the gold box

Postby Knaight » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:42 am

Lord Foul wrote:I know I'm going to live to regret this... but I feel compelled to defend Ashtray in this... :problem:


I'm seriously considering putting this in as my new signature. It's just such a rarity that it deserves preservation of some sort.

Also it's funny.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw

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Chad
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Re: Episode 461 - back to the gold box

Postby Chad » Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:48 am

Mikel wrote:Constructive criticism is when you're giving actual information beyond "I hated it" and I don't think giving someone a pass to be an asshole is okay. It still makes them an asshole.

I direct theatre in this town and a lot of people know me. Even if I hate their show, I'l only tell them, "How much honesty do you want?" If they keep pushing for my opinion. Even then, if I go into what I didn't like, I don't just rail against them and say how much I hated it. I'll discuss the why.

I'm all for constructive criticism. I'm less for just being an ass.




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I completely agree.

shadesofeternity
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Re: Episode 461 - back to the gold box

Postby shadesofeternity » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:34 pm

you had to mention curse of the azure bonds.

aka the novel set that introduced me to dinosaur people in the forgotten realms.

I liked saurials enough to write something for the dm's guild because...well one of the species looks like a mini-godzilla, amongst other things.

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Dan
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Re: Episode 461 - back to the gold box

Postby Dan » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:47 pm

I have way too much distress in my life right now to get caught up in this, so I'm going to make one and only one post on the side topic. I wouldn't say anything at all, except (1) it does speak to a bigger issue of how to interpret community standards I authored and (2) it's been cross-posted, which makes it harder to ignore.

The relevant standards are...

3b. We respect a wide variety of opinions, and you are free to disagree with anyone. However, such disagreement should always be expressed with decency and courtesy.

3c. Hosts, contributors, and moderators do not fall outside these rules. Neither statements made by them nor toward them may violate the standards that apply everywhere else.

As a human being, I think Mikel is 100% right. There's the empathetic/sympathetic question of, "What was the point of that, particularly when both episodes (recorded on the same night) led off with a passing reference to deep, personal distress?"

However, speaking purely to whether that post violates the letter of the rules, I agree with the vast majority of what Chad wrote. Feedback is solicited and acceptable, including when it's negative. No one is breaking our rules by disagreeing with us or stating they hated something we made. Nor do the rules say criticism has to be constructive. It may not be fun to hear, but we're big boys and girls, so it's fine. Hell, we even acted on some of it. 15 - 20 minutes of content (including parts you specifically called out) got cut from the final release.

However, the last two sentences...

You managed to prove me wrong. Good job?

...went from critique of the episode to personal attack. Given my clouded judgment, I'll defer back to Chad on whether to do anything further with that information. But there ya go.
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Dan
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Re: Episode 461 - back to the gold box

Postby Dan » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:51 pm

DaleMcCoy wrote:You guys said at one point that you'll have to find a way to play them. Here you go, the much easier way of doing it.

Incase you hadn't heard, they also have the original X-Wing and TIE Fighter games there as well.

That's awesome! Thank you for that link! Once I get some breathing room, I think I'm going to start Twitch streaming these games. It'd be fun to both relive these old games and introduce them to people that never saw the classic CRPGs.
Holy or unholy. Only one homie. Only this gun. Lonely 'cause don't anyone know me.


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