If you guys like cyberpunk but aren’t so into mixing it with magic have you ever considered just dumping Shadowrun for a different cyberpunk game? Interface Zero, a Savage Worlds setting is having a kickstarter for its 2nd edition until the end of February. If you throw in any amount now you’ll get access to backer’s only updates with links to download all the 1st edition .pdfs to see if you like it.

I feel like, given how they were dumping on SW’s “shaken” mechanic early in the episode (and that Dan said he was uncomfortable with using a single generic system for all genres of RPG) they wouldn’t be terribly open to that.

On the topic of hit points in D&D and your discussion of their in-game explanation, I must say that this is something I have always taken as a “fact” whenever I game. Whether I am the DM or not, I typically take the “hit” in “hit points” to mean that once you run out of these arbitrary points, you are actually hit for good and take some actual damage, seeing as at least in fourth edition, you take no negative penalties at all and all that the “bloodied” status (where you have half your hit points or fewer) does is trigger a variety of effects in powers that have nothing to do with it, both good and bad. It’s basically being winded from a long fight. Then again, that interpretation does have its problems where you can still get healed for hit points and getting healed from 0 HP makes it so that you’re completely fine again, combat-wise.

One of my groups has done the combat system swapping. What I did was a modified HERO system combat system in what was otherwise 4th edition D&D. I swapped the player’s initiative mod with a speed score, and wrote the powers (those power cards did come in handy) in the system. The few that had to be drastically changed were noted, and I let the players help design some of the powers and make new ones if they wanted, within reason for their class and character. Then we re-made the cards to show HERO numbers and die rolls.

It was a lot of work (more than I anticipated, but less with the help of the other players and the one other gamer in my group really familiar with the HERO system), but the result was worth it, since we now had the robust system in place where stun and constitution are tracked separately, and speed determines turn frequency as well as turn order. It let the players do more of what they wanted, rather than the MMO-style limiting of what powers you can pick at a given time. It also allowed the use of hit-locations. I prefer rolling 3d6 to 1d20 anyway for the bell curve, so this fit well for me.

We hit a few snags along the way, particularly because D&D skills don’t include combat skill levels, and because we didn’t include martial arts (the fighter’s dirty-kick had to be written as a high-stun, voice-pitch-raising melee attack), but ultimately we had what i felt was a pretty rewarding tied-together game. The players loved being able to define combat abilities themselves (how many D&D fighters get a standard groin-kick ability? How many D&D wizards can elect to shock themselves with lightning for a few rounds in order to massively improve their next lightning bolt? Our wizard nearly killed himself once, but got thunder to strike a necromancer, obliterating him into a red paste).

With the right (and very patient) group, i might do it again, though I would be more tempted to just get them playing Fantasy HERO.

Wait a second… the FtB guys don’t wanna do math?!

I think much of the Savage Worlds bashing can be attributed to inexperience with the system and ignorance when it comes to character creation. There are a few edges in the Deluxe Explorer’s Edition rulebook that provide you with bonuses when making your Vigor roll to recover from the “Shaken” condition. Not to mention the fact that “bennies” are there so that you, as a player, can recover from the shaken condition and act, whilst your foe may still be staggered from a previous attack.

In fact, the entire concept of a “benny” or a “wildcard” is a symbolic representation of the special nature of a player character; there are far more “extras”, who can only take a single hit, than there are “wildcard” PCs or NPCs. If your GM isn’t recognizing this, then it’s YOUR job as a player to remind him/her so he/she can redesign accordingly!

As far as the modifiers to hit and shoot; well, every system makes a player calculate formulas. I don’t hear Pat or Wayne bitching about D&D and it’s insane modifiers (especially at higher levels) or grow winsome over the fact that just about any encounter involves calculating some math in one’s head.

I think a good RPG session is about trust; have some faith in your GM and the guys (and/or gals) sitting next to you at the table. If you can’t deal with “not getting a turn” then its time to grow up a bit and get a sense of humor.

I usually love your discussions, but this episode rubbed me the wrong way because it was about what the FtB crew doesn’t like (which is completely fine) and not an objective treatment of a game system.

After reading your comment, I’m guessing we didn’t communicate this quite as intended.

Almost every RPG I’ve encountered has some sort of mechanic that can take away control of your character. D&D has spells, Battletech has pilot hits, and so forth. Sure, some players may find any such mechanic annoying, but I think we’re ready to accept that as part of the game. We certainly do it to the enemies, after all!

But in all of the games I’ve played, I’ve never spent so much time struggling to regain control of my character as I do fighting off Shaken in Savage Worlds. You literally cannot be wounded without also being Shaken (page 74 – 75 of EE). Imagine if every single hit point loss in D&D also cast Sleep.

As you noted, you can throw a benny to remove Shaken. Jacking up your Spirit stat also helps.* And there are some Edges you can take, such as Combat Reflexes or Inspire. But therein lies our concern: I don’t want to have to design my character simply to avoid a condition that is not only irritating but also happens with greater frequency than such thing happens in other games.

I’m not dismissing SW as a bad system. There’s a reason I own the book and we’ve played so many campaigns. I love a lot of what’s there. I’m just not a big fan of staring at a field with X combatants, and at any given moment, probably about half of them are Shaken or losing their turn to recovering from Shaken.

* In the edition that we use (EE), the roll is made against Spirit, not Vigor. I don’t have a copy of Deluxe, so I’m presuming they changed it between the books.