full comments from Ryan Dancey
by Dan Repperger
In episode 261, I made passing reference to a commentary by Ryan Dancey about the content of RPG products, specifically with an eye to new players. At the time I didn’t recall where it was from, but after the show’s release I tracked it down to private communication. I sent Ryan an apology, as quoting private conversations (even when unintentional) does not fit within the ethical framework of this show. Being the great guy that he is, he not only laughed it off but was gracious enough to allow me to post the entirety of his comments. So with my thanks to Mr. Dancey, here ya go!
I think that most of the time someone in our industry tries to do an “intro” product, they’re really much more likely to be making a “switch from another TRPG” or a “play a TRPG again like you haven’t since you were a kid” product.
A product like Mouseguard, for example, has intro product potential but the way it is presented in terms of being a book, at a certain price, with a certain set of assumptions about the creative experiences of the potential players and GMs, would have a very hard time succeeding at bringing new players into the hobby.
A product like the Pathfinder Beginner Box is a bit closer to the mark, and I have hopes that it will work as intended. I fear for its size, complexity and price though.
Things I learned while watching kids struggle to self-teach themselves TRPGs from behind one-way mirrors:
1: They’re not patient. They can’t easily connect information that comes at them from several different pages of a book, plus a chart or graph, plus a character sheet. They are so excited to “just play” that you can’t get them settled enough to process the complexity of most TRPG products. More than 2 sources of information is overwhelming. They’ll just tend to remember the last 2 things you showed them and forget the rest.
2: They already know how to roleplay. You tell them “you’re a knight going out to fight monsters”, and they get it. They’ll happy speak in character and try to live up to their idea of what such a character would do. Unfortunately, most game systems are more about saying “no” than saying “yes”, so their creative spark gets damped real quick. Rather than giving them a way to process an adventure as a game with rules, the rules actually become a barrier between their innate sense of storytelling and the adventure they’re trying to have.
3: Some kids need to be given a space to act that is protected. In other words, you need to establish a way for each kid to speak and be heard without being overwhelmed by the noisiest, pushiest members of the bunch. Some kids need to be given “permission” to do what they want to do. They’re looking for an adult to validate their decision so they don’t “do the wrong thing”. An encouraging attitude that reinforces that they’re doing just fine helps them overcome the fear of looking stupid, or acting “wrongly”. And some kids need to be pulled aside and given a stern talk about sharing, being polite, and respecting others, and they may need to have a few “time outs” issued along the way to reinforce that those words will be enforced.
4: Death is a Big Scary Thing. It’s much, much better to have characters “fall down” or “be knocked out” rather than die. Some kids will get paralyzed and have trouble participating because they self-identify with their characters very strongly and don’t like the emotions they have when they, or their friends “die”. Make sure they know that “running away” is sometimes the right thing to do, and don’t let the other kids make that feel like being a “coward”. Also don’t surprise them with catastrophe. A failed save out of the blue that results in Bad Things is really jarring. It’s much better to give them a framing statement like “that door looks mighty dangerous, it might be trapped”, so that they’re prepared for the potential that something could happen that will hurt their characters. If you don’t do this, some kids will react by treating everything in the virtual environment like a bomb with a hair trigger.
So what happens when you take an experienced game designer who is:
A: Used to asking players to integrate material from a matrix of sources
B: Paid to create mechanics that manipulate the virtual world
C: Expecting that each player will assert themselves when they want to act
D: Using shock tactics, random violence, and surprise against the playersYou get a designer making a game that isn’t going to work as an introduction to the hobby. Why would we expect anything else; all the other products they’re paid to work on and passionate about do A-D. What you need is a designer (ideally a design team) willing to approach the task with a very open mind, to be humble about watching kids test their work, learn from what they see and hear, and incorporate that into iterations of the design which are then tested again, and so on. They need to learn about developmental psychology and how different ages understand and process different things. And they need to see that the success of their work can’t be judged by what random internet reviewer says on RPG.NETor ENWorld, but instead on the basis of how effective the product is at taking a kid who doesn’t know how to play a TRPG and converting that kid into one who does, and who seeks out additional TRPG gameplay experiences.
RyanD
Dan, this is why we love you: thorough, organized, respectful, professional. Thanks to you and Mr. Dancey for the reading…
By the way, I have started recommending FtB to everyone. I am starting a new campaign next week and I have recommended my players listen to the two episodes re: group template (eps 2 and 243 IIRC) – though I suspect most of them have heard the episodes already. (ALSO – thank you for template questions you posted way back when. I have used them before, and plan to use them again on sunday). We are all BIG fans of the show. This will be a Skype game for us, so I am interested in hearing more about how your remote game progresses, too.
(sorry my last post went a bit – a lot – off topic)
I read and then reread this. I like what RD says about younger players, and rings very true for me and my experiences.
Ok, hopefully this isn’t too off topic again:
I am a child/family mental health counselor, and a lot of my work with teens involves teaching social skills and practicing social “scripts” (listening, waiting, taking turns, empathy, emotional ID and regulation, etc.). Anyway, a lot of how I teach this is through role play. And that is exactly what the professionals call it in the books. Teens really love it, I’ve found, and my experience as a GM really helps me out a lot. I typically take advantage of what I know about them on a personal level, and what RD said about how they seem to have a tendancy to “over identify” with their characters.
I have never tried these exercises in a group setting, or as more of a traditional RP with continuing story, recurring characters… But I am curious if anyone knows of therapeutic RP systems out there? Is there such a thing?
I gotta ask,
Why is the assumption for intro products that it is bringing new players into the hobby through children?
There are several games that have very good introductory sets but aim themselves at adults rather than children (Lamentations of the Flame Princess has some impressive referee advice along the lines of when your players suck and you should not bother trying to introduce them to the hobby, it isn’t for them)
I’d also question if bringing in kids into the hobby is as effective as bringing in adults.
@Lvl20dm – Thank you very, very much! I can say in all seriousness that’s the nicest thing anyone’s said about me in quite a while. I really appreciate you taking the time to write that.
@Zzarchov – Obviously I can’t speak on behalf of Ryan, but I’ll do my best to reply. What he’s describing is observation borne of his experience watching kids try to dig into RPGs. Therefore, all of the subsequent commentary must necessarily be about kids.
With that said, is it his view that bringing in kids is the best or only way forward? I don’t know. I know he has passion for bringing the next generation into the hobby, but in my experience that can be done just as effectively (if not more effectively) by winning over the parents, teachers, etc, that interact with those kids. In fact, I watched companies like FASA go off the road and straight into a ditch by trying too hard to placate kids who trade most of their fads every 6 – 12 months, anyway.
I was also asked exactly what he means by “kids”. I sent him an inquiry but haven’t gotten a reply yet. I’m not sure if the “kids” were 8, 13, or even 18.
We were testing the Pokemon series of RPGs so the kids were 6 to 8 years old.
Ryan, I know you’re a busy guy that’s typically paid for this kind of insight, but I’ll ask anyway. ;)
From what I recall of the context of this conversation, it was about getting kids into the hobby. So your recollection of the Pokemon experience was perfectly placed. But how applicable do you feel these observations are for new gamers of different ages? For example, what if instead of Pokemon for 6 to 8 year-olds, we were doing other titles for 13, 18, 25, or 40 year-olds?
From my experience with child development and working with kids (3-adult), I would say that as kids get older (10-13) they become more self aware, making his third point even more crucial to support and encourage point two: 10-13 year olds know how to roleplay/pretend still, but need to be in an environment and with peers where they feel comfortable doing so. It may take longer to establish this, also.
Additionally, as kids age they show bigger gaps in social-emotional development. The 3 year old who is behind in social skills compared to their peers is only mildly so, while the 12 year old might show massive deficit. Ryan’s first point about patience is a good example of this – it might be easier to “plan ahead” for how to write rules or introduce a game to 6-8 yr olds, because they have less disparity in their patience levels than 13 year olds (granted, teens are not well known for their impulse control and patience). I have worked with preteen kids who would be totally able to sit for several hours and learn dnd no problem before even playing, while others might have difficulty following three rules… But then again, I know adults who are similar (their parents…?)
As far as his fourth point goes, I think as kids age they would be able to tolerate and appreciate more “big consequences” to their actions, though it is largely dependent on how egocentric they remain, and their capacity for empathy. I liked his mention of how to word this with kids: “that looks really dangerous – your character knows xyz bad thing could happen if they try it…” it sounds a lot like rp in sessions with social skills coaching. Ryan, are you a therapist too? Or perhaps a parent.
I’m not ashamed to admit I played “pretend” longer than most kids, because I have always loved cooperative storytelling. I only really stopped when I discovered RPGs. Honestly though, before about sixth or seventh grade, I think that a more “rules heavy” system would have turned me off to RP. On that same note, as a trained play therapist, there is certainly an age (usually around 9-10) where kids stop engaging in fantasy play and will only engage more in “creative therapies” and “role play.” it all has to do with development yadda yadda brain yadda – so I also agree with Ryan that the industry SHOULD consult with developmental/MH professionals, if they desire to target the younger generations.
From what I’ve seem on the market, there are several interesting products which serve as “bridge games” between “playing pretend” and “RPGs.” I do think that the 8-12 age group is the one to target though, for this type of product (I’m trying to recall product names after my last trip to toys r us… Seems like Lego had a board/minis game that looked interesting, but I don’t know much about it).
I’m sure Ryan has more insight to how that question relates from the gaming/industry of things though.
(btw I am typing all this on my phone and apologize for typos and DYACs)
saw this post today on boingboing on ‘game design with kids’:
http://boingboing.net/2012/04/02/game-design-with-kids-an-inte.html#more-152480