Episode 231, lying part 2
by Dan Repperger

* (0:37) Bubba mows his lawn in the middle of the night.  We won’t call him, but we contemplate calling the D&D help hotline.  In case you’ve never heard of it, here are some highlights from the Butterball turkey hotline.

* (4:18) Kicking off the March of Dimes charity auction with a chance to set the topic, request an interview, and guest on an episode of Fear the Boot.  You can find the auction here!  If you’d like to make a direct donation instead of participating in the auction, you can do so here.

* (5:55) The next Gamer Adventure cruise is coming up on March 24, 2012.  We’d love to have some of you join us!  You can find more information here.  And if you think you can’t afford this trip, please contact Kim and see if she can use her travel agent prowess to help you out.

* (8:29) Chad takes us back to the D&D hotline.

* (10:04) Why won’t our campaign roll over and die like every other campaign we play?  Using our current game as a case study on why campaigns tend to fall apart and the various factors that can keep them together.

* (32:31) We pick up our conversation on lying again.  This time we focus on player-to-player lying, including whether social skills should be usable on fellow players.

Hosts: Chad, Chris, Dan, Johann, Pat, Wayne

Comments (13)

AsrianMay 18th, 2011 at 4:28 am

Someone at wizards of the coast might listen to your podcast. Also could it be possible to set up an auction where someone could become a regular or semi regular host?

WayneMay 18th, 2011 at 9:38 am

Yeah I didn’t want to rain on their parade, but I’m pretty sure calling the helpline and recording them without first explaining what you are doing and getting consent isn’t legal. I know it is illegal in some states to record a phone conversation without telling the other party.

DanMay 18th, 2011 at 10:56 am

I’m pretty sure you’re correct, Wayne. Recording a call without consent is against Federal law. If we did this, it’d have to be an arranged interview anyway.

AdrianMay 18th, 2011 at 2:12 pm

So how about hooking a gamer up hmm I brought this up so you all could think for yourselves and not do a fear the jail podcast lol

JustinMay 18th, 2011 at 6:38 pm

I think the “Pudding Moon” example is a little wonky because I think that there has to be an in-game reason for a character to lie. What I mean is that there has to be an intention or goal to be gained through the lie. Otherwise, why would the character be lying except just as a side show or messing around? If it’s just for fun there’s no reason to use any in-game mechanics for it, and if a character is spending time lying for fun to an NPC for no purpose you have to question whether it’s time to call it a night or what.

Burning Wheel actually has some really good things to say about this. The Duel of Wits mechanic is designed (I think) so that neither party comes out completely having defeated the other, so that concessions must be made to the winning side’s argument. Also, Luke makes the point that winning an argument is NOT mind control; this is probably one of the biggest mistakes you can make in social conflict. Instead, if you win an argument or discussion then you have either removed all support for the opposing view or made the other character see some or a lot of sense in your view for this particular instance, not for all time. You could probably also have a nice long discussion on the overlaps between leadership and argumentative skill.

Either way the argument has to have some motivation behind it or it makes no sense. If an NPC has no reason to change their view then why would they change it? They would just listen to the character and smile and nod, there is nothing at stake; but if an NPC must be given a motivation by the player to change their thinking by putting something at stake, that is where the real reason for social conflict comes into play and actually holds meaning.

DanMay 19th, 2011 at 5:54 pm

@Adrian – On most weeks, we have enough people to do the show. However, I wouldn’t be averse to picking a “first alternate” to keep on stand-by in case they’re needed.

But if they were to be a recurring personality, we’d have to do more than just an auction. We’d need to make sure they fit into the chemistry of the existing hosts, bring good ideas, can get decent sound quality, and so forth.

So the answer isn’t, “No,” so much as, “It would need to come about in a very different fashion.” Even with Johann, he was originally supposed to be on just one episode. We happily invited him back once we realized he was such a great fit (something we didn’t know beforehand).

@Justin – I think you hit it dead on. The choice to lie and the content of the lie itself needs some sort of context. While I don’t want to speak on his behalf, I think (?) Chad was using the strawman of a pudding moon to illustrate his discomfort with powerful social skills enabling characters to foist absurd ideas.

But as for me personally, as long as I keep everything in the context of in-character continuity, I have no problem with letting the dice play some sort of nudging role, even when used against another player. If I can use Strength rolls to out-shove you, then why can’t a Diplomacy roll at least get two seconds of consideration in shaping your character’s opinion? But as soon as you take away IC context — or force such rolls to be blindly obeyed — it now becomes the player-robbing mind control I cringe at.

AdrianMay 20th, 2011 at 8:51 am

Ok what about auctioning of some fear the con tickets and some added stuff like free dinner hotel or what not.

JustinMay 20th, 2011 at 5:58 pm

I also just wanted to say I recently discovered the show and am enjoying it, definitely one of the best RPG podcasts that I have listened to so far in my growing addiction to RPG podcasts. Thanks!

DanMay 23rd, 2011 at 2:02 pm

@Adrian – That’s definitely a possibility. Thanks for the suggestion!

@Justin – Glad to hear it, and I really appreciate you taking the time to let us know!

LokiTMMay 24th, 2011 at 5:44 pm

Thinking about the lie / bluff check “the moon is made of solid chocolate pudding”.
I think I would treat this as less “You now believe that the moon is made of chocolate pudding”, but rather that “You believe that HE believes that the moon is made of chocolate pudding”.

The speaker of the lie is totally convincing in his apparent sincerity.

NateMay 26th, 2011 at 7:27 am

All you have to do is notify them that the conversation will be recorded. If they don’t hang up that is considered consent.

ChrisJune 28th, 2011 at 5:01 pm

In reference to it being legal to record a phone conversation. Radio stations do it after the fact why can’t. I heard my local radio station call up businesses and play a prank on them and then at the end of the call confess to being a radio station. I assume you could do the same thing with the D&D hotline and just request permission to air the conversation after your done talking to them; maybe going as far as seeking upper management approval off air). If they say no you can just destroy the recording.

ChrisJune 28th, 2011 at 5:12 pm

Just looked it up on wikipedia. Apparently the following states have a two party notification law:
California
Connecticut
Florida
Illinois
Maryland
Massachusetts
Montana
Nevada
New Hampshire
Pennsylvania
Washington

But this means that Chris could do the recording since he’s in Iowa(if I remember right), where only one party being aware of the recording is neccesary and then ask for permission after

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