It's out.

Regarding Chad's idea mentioned in passing, with both "faith in my god" and "my god's faith in me" it allows some interesting things. Something that came up a while back while talking to Timespike was the concept of gods having de-facto black ops, in people who had zero faith in them, doesn't follow a god at all, but nonetheless consistently act in the way the god wants them to. A completely deniable asset like that who is unknowingly using divine magic of some sort could be extremely fun to play, and if all you have is quantity of faith that character can't be.

On the other hand, The Mummy style humor works with strength of faith, and there is certainly fun to be had there. Imagine a filthy rich, greedy corporate archetype who is getting attacked by a vampire or something, and holds up his wallet to drive it away - in a comedic game, that scene could be great fodder. Then, on yet another hand, there is the matter of whether having faith at all is even a good idea. It's implicit that faith is a good thing at all times, and sometimes that message isn't something wanted in a setting.

Blind posting without having listened yet

It always seemed funny to me (though I know why it is that way - balance) that low level clerics cast low level spells since if the power comes from the deity then whatever it can do should be available, and sometimes what it can easily do should be refused.

Of course that leads to a game where first level characters perform miraculous resurrections and later are unable to cure the smallest wound.

Which could be awful, or could be fun

I'm actually nervous about listening to this one!

I've brought this up in Shadowrun... Why are bug spirits vulnerable to insecticides but not regular toxins? Many insecticides are just as toxic to humans and vice versa. I think it has something to do with the ability to attack spirits with the force of will. So insecticides work because of the collective force of will of the masses believing that it works. From the metagame standpoint, it works because the rules say so. But from an in game metaphysical theory standpoint, it works because people have faith in insecticides.

I also worked on a DND setting where gods didn't technically exist. There were primordial power sources out there that could be tapped into. This is pretty much how all magic worked. However, mere mortals needed a crutch to access it. Mages used books and scrolls with arcane formula to help sort out the magic. Sorcerers had that link genetically encoded into them. Warlocks had pacts made with powerful magical creatures. Psions used crystals. But then it came down to divine magic. Clerics used the faith of followers (and to a lesser extent their own faith) to harness the powers. The very powerful empire in the game was a very religious group, which had a powerful state church. When they expanded their borders, they would often co opt the indigenous religions and explain to them that they were indeed following the same gods, just under a different name. Thus the state church was able to steal the faith of other religions. At some point, this concept got out into the public in a sort of renaissance, basically giving power to the common man. This was a disastrous blow against the church, who immediately cried Heresy and a great schism was formed.

One of my D20 books (a Ravenloft one I think) had something in it about creatures being revered as gods, and the level of spells they could grant their worshippers was based on how many worshippers you had...

I suppose a fun game could be played as "gods in the making" squabbling for the largest share of the available worshippers.

Joe, I'm pretty sure you're correct about Shadowrun. Thinking of an even more common situation -- spirit combat -- you can use melee weapons against manifested spirits, but not guns. And when you use those melee weapons, you roll your Willpower as your attack dice. The rules pretty clearly say that the item has no effect on the spirit, but it becomes an expression of your will.

If you actually want a game with the two metrics "Your faith in your god" and "Your gods faith in you",

The way priests work in NGR is what you are looking for.

To clarify Zzcarchov's post, this is NGR...

http://zzarchov.blogspot.com/2011/12/ne ... vival.html

Only half-way through and trying not to just post a running commentary.

I like the mechanic in Deadlands regarding a crisis of faith. If, as a Blessed, you fail your roll, then you suffer a crisis of faith. And I think this gets to Dan's discussion about the true meaning of faith. "I have reached out to you [insert divine power] and you did not come through. I now question my faith."

If I remember right, this concept is backed up in the SR Adventure, Harlequin's Back (which is F-ing awesome, btw), where the PCs are able to see the metaphysical spike, manifested as a bridge in this case by the Great Ghost Dance.

Dan's assessment about spirits and melee weapons is also correct I believe.