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Women Fighters in Reasonable Armor
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Raygereio
I am the story stick
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:02 am Posts: 1326 Location: Netherlands
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 Re: Women Fighters in Reasonable Armor
Edit: Scrubbed most of this post due to Larian saying he didn't want to persue this topic further, which I missed when I started replying. Larian wrote: Good pictures of "practical" female armor are hard to find, but have you considered that there are very few historical references for female armor, but HUGE amounts of references for male armor.. that might be a contributing factor.  Do note that historically there was no such thing as female specific armours. Pretty much all armour designs could be worn by women. As for visual references from history. I'll grant you that it's rare to find depictions of women in any sort of combat role (due to the obvious reasons which can varry from various forms of sexism to some civilization just not having the decency of leaving polaroids behind), but that doesn't mean it's not out there though ( 15th century depiction of Joan of Arc).
_________________ Nine out of ten science frogs say any mistake in grammar and/or spelling in the above post is merely a figment of your imagination.
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| Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:17 am |
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Larian
Teller of gaming stories
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:20 am Posts: 527 Location: Raleigh, NC
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 Re: Women Fighters in Reasonable Armor
Raygereio wrote: Edit: Scrubbed most of this post due to Larian saying he didn't want to persue this topic further, which I missed when I started replying. Larian wrote: Good pictures of "practical" female armor are hard to find, but have you considered that there are very few historical references for female armor, but HUGE amounts of references for male armor.. that might be a contributing factor.  Do note that historically there was no such thing as female specific armours. Pretty much all armour designs could be worn by women. As for visual references from history. I'll grant you that it's rare to find depictions of women in any sort of combat role (due to the obvious reasons which can varry from various forms of sexism to some civilization just not having the decency of leaving polaroids behind), but that doesn't mean it's not out there though ( 15th century depiction of Joan of Arc). Never said it DID NOT EXIST.... just that its EXTREMELY RARE!
_________________ Never underestimate the power of Human stupidity. Robert A. Heinlein
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| Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:09 pm |
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Raygereio
I am the story stick
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:02 am Posts: 1326 Location: Netherlands
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 Re: Women Fighters in Reasonable Armor
Larian wrote: Never said it DID NOT EXIST.... just that its EXTREMELY RARE! Easy there, no reason to start shouting. The part you apparently got upset over was meant as an addendum to what I quoted. The point I tried to make was the concept of "female armour" and "male armour". That just didn't exist in history.
_________________ Nine out of ten science frogs say any mistake in grammar and/or spelling in the above post is merely a figment of your imagination.
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| Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:18 pm |
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Larian
Teller of gaming stories
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:20 am Posts: 527 Location: Raleigh, NC
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 Re: Women Fighters in Reasonable Armor
Raygereio wrote: Larian wrote: Never said it DID NOT EXIST.... just that its EXTREMELY RARE! Easy there, no reason to start shouting. The part you apparently got upset over was meant as an addendum to what I quoted. The point I tried to make was the concept of "female armour" and "male armour". That just didn't exist in history. My apology.. i forget sometime that caps = shouting... wasn't mad, just trying to make a point... And as for your point... tell that to a woman with C-cups trying to get into a man's chest plate.... there has to be Female and Male armor... simple anatomy requires it. BTW this is from personal experience in the SCA... male armor just dosen't work for most women... not all true, but most.
_________________ Never underestimate the power of Human stupidity. Robert A. Heinlein
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| Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:23 pm |
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Raygereio
I am the story stick
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:02 am Posts: 1326 Location: Netherlands
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 Re: Women Fighters in Reasonable Armor
Larian wrote: And as for your point... tell that to a woman with C-cups trying to get into a man's chest plate.... there has to be Female and Male armor... simple anatomy requires it. I'll freely admit I'm no expert on the subject (being male and all that), but as far as I know all but the largest breasts can be bound quite flat against the chest. That pretty much elimates the single anatomy difference between men and women right there (well, as far as armour is concerned). Certain armour designs and outliers in average breastsizes aside; unless the armour in question is tailored specifically to a single man, there really shouldn't be any reason why a woman of comparable height can't wear it.
_________________ Nine out of ten science frogs say any mistake in grammar and/or spelling in the above post is merely a figment of your imagination.
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| Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:51 pm |
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Larian
Teller of gaming stories
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:20 am Posts: 527 Location: Raleigh, NC
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 Re: Women Fighters in Reasonable Armor
Raygereio wrote: Larian wrote: And as for your point... tell that to a woman with C-cups trying to get into a man's chest plate.... there has to be Female and Male armor... simple anatomy requires it. I'll freely admit I'm no expert on the subject (being male and all that), but as far as I know all but the largest breasts can be bound quite flat against the chest. That pretty much elimates the single anatomy difference between men and women right there (well, as far as armour is concerned). Certain armour designs and outliers in average breastsizes aside; unless the armour in question is tailored specifically to a single man, there really shouldn't be any reason why a woman of comparable height can't wear it. OK, that's not the only difference, just the most noticeable one... and if you think breast binding is so easy... well i would say try it, but doesn't really work. SO you'll just have to trust me there. Women also "tend to have wider hips, and that makes the armor chaff along the tops of the hips on most women unless modifications are made... there is also the center of balance issue... ever try the "bend at the waist and pick up a chair thing"... it causes the armor to mess up some women's balance if the weight is not distributed differently... i forget exactly how, its been a while since i build a suit of armor for a woman, but i know it's an issue... a minor one, but an issue. Here are some good examples of women's armor, but they are all SCA not historical. i cant figure out how to put the images up, but here is a good web sight with a lot of very good examples of functional female armor http://www.schmitthenner.com/Female_armor.html
_________________ Never underestimate the power of Human stupidity. Robert A. Heinlein
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| Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:13 pm |
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Knaight
( 1. Numbered List ( 2. Dan ) 3. Venn Diagram )
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 6:15 pm Posts: 4254 Location: Fort Collins, CO
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 Re: Women Fighters in Reasonable Armor
Larian wrote: OK, that's not the only difference, just the most noticeable one... and if you think breast binding is so easy... well i would say try it, but doesn't really work. SO you'll just have to trust me there. Women also "tend to have wider hips, and that makes the armor chaff along the tops of the hips on most women unless modifications are made... there is also the center of balance issue... ever try the "bend at the waist and pick up a chair thing"... it causes the armor to mess up some women's balance if the weight is not distributed differently... i forget exactly how, its been a while since i build a suit of armor for a woman, but i know it's an issue... a minor one, but an issue. The predominant armor for about two thousand years was mail. Mail is flexible enough that one can literally mass produce it in a few different sizes and call it a day - the later Romans actually did so. Sure, plate has to be fitted very exactingly, but full suits of plate were only in use for a fraction of the time mail was, and there is no way to tell who all wore mail. You can get a general idea of how large the person was, and that is about it. Biological sex? Good luck with that.
_________________ "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
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| Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:27 pm |
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Larian
Teller of gaming stories
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:20 am Posts: 527 Location: Raleigh, NC
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 Re: Women Fighters in Reasonable Armor
_________________ Never underestimate the power of Human stupidity. Robert A. Heinlein
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| Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:33 pm |
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Mersozz
Monostat Fanfic Writer
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:14 pm Posts: 1512 Location: Elmhurst Illinois
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 Re: Women Fighters in Reasonable Armor
Raygereio wrote: Mersozz wrote: Without a doubt, a veteran female warrior would select substance over form....but ornamentation might also be integrated as a display of hierarchy or military rank/prowess. Erm, the issue here isn't ornamentation, but more the lack of uniform on women. That said: I'll admit that I have a certain fondness for the bling of war, but for starters, no sane person would use parade uniforms as combat dress. Well, there were the World War 1 minor powers, but then I somewhat doubt we can call anything that happenend before, during and after WO1 "sane" with a straight face. And to give a more medieval example; anyone recall those big crests that you usually see ontop of the helmets of knights? Sure some people might have worn those things on parades or during tournaments, but there were only a handfull of people insane enough to wear those during actual combat. Secondly: Saying that a bikini or any sort of stripperiffic outfit is somehow a dress uniform is going to take a lot of convincing - no matter how mugh gold brocade you've put on it. As for the whole sexism issue: there's a reason why the stereotype of "women don't do geeky things" is still so prevalent, despite the rather huge percentage of women that engage in geeky activities (I don't have actual data, but in my experience it's easily a 50/50 split these days). But the shitty attitude of some men is an eniterly different topic. VV wrote: My personal image collection, which I use for character images, is in excess of five thousand pieces, of varying types. Could you perhaps upload and share that collection? I know some women who might be helped with that. As you said, finding pictures of women that aren't sexualized to the point of absurdity can be somewhat of a quest of homeric proporties. In addition to my Roman breastplate example, I think native american warpaint, headdress, etc, is another example of why garments need not be strictly utilitarian. My point is that substance (protection, agility, comfort) and form (emblems, engravings, crests, sigils, etc) could be combined on both male and female armour. Anything else is simply reading things into my original post that I do not see. I would also caution people from applying a parochial (21st century / American) notion of sexism to a fantasy/sci-fi milieu without making adjustments for the indigenous (albeit fictional) cultures in question. We do, after all, live on a planet where one man's necktie is another man's penis gourd.
_________________ "Quite exciting, this computer magic." - Viv Savage
Last edited by Mersozz on Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:04 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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| Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:33 pm |
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Larian
Teller of gaming stories
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:20 am Posts: 527 Location: Raleigh, NC
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 Re: Women Fighters in Reasonable Armor
Knaight wrote: Larian wrote: OK, that's not the only difference, just the most noticeable one... and if you think breast binding is so easy... well i would say try it, but doesn't really work. SO you'll just have to trust me there. Women also "tend to have wider hips, and that makes the armor chaff along the tops of the hips on most women unless modifications are made... there is also the center of balance issue... ever try the "bend at the waist and pick up a chair thing"... it causes the armor to mess up some women's balance if the weight is not distributed differently... i forget exactly how, its been a while since i build a suit of armor for a woman, but i know it's an issue... a minor one, but an issue. The predominant armor for about two thousand years was mail. Mail is flexible enough that one can literally mass produce it in a few different sizes and call it a day - the later Romans actually did so. Sure, plate has to be fitted very exactingly, but full suits of plate were only in use for a fraction of the time mail was, and there is no way to tell who all wore mail. You can get a general idea of how large the person was, and that is about it. Biological sex? Good luck with that. Very true, but mail was also very expensive.. even during the height of the chain mail period, leather was the most common due to cost... was mail mass produced, yes... but it was never cheep! it just took to damn much work to make.
_________________ Never underestimate the power of Human stupidity. Robert A. Heinlein
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| Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:35 pm |
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