I split the difference between the pair of you. It really only has to apologize for "The Firebending Masters" and any part of the finale featuring Aang once he split from the gaang.

Edit: And the Sokka/Suki hookup. Laaaaaaaame!

That's fine.



So good that it creates a whole new character who goes nowhere and does nothing. (Tho, to be fair, Combustion Man only made me put up with him for a chunk of one season, who, unlike Brienne, made me put up with her shenanigans for almost two books.)

So good all of Sokka's 2nd act development gets shoved into the third act like a fat man in spandex, then isn't paid off appropriately.

So good that all of Zuko's development and maturity gets tossed in the crapper in favor of him needlessly behaving like a whiny, emo git until its time for the last four episodes.

So good that after at least one false start, and halfway through the season, all the good guys are left holding animation's largest idiot ball for the sake of dragging out the climax.

So good that the denouement happens before that climax.


But hey, some people enjoy watching slow motion train wrecks, so if you had fun, it's cool.

Zuko is finally coming to terms with all the bad shit he has done. the people he realizes he should be helping hate him and rightfully so, he had been a jackass to them. he also was struggling with the whole "Gain the whole world but lose my soul" paradigm, I'd probably be whiny and emo too

The Failure of the Day of Black sun was inevitable as we saw Azula get told about it. It was the all it lost before the finale. It had false victory and false defeat.

Combustion Man was a bounty hunter. He didn't need much character and he served his purpose in Zuko's redemption. and like you said, it wasn't like he was a constant figure we dealt with, he showed up every now and then did his thing and was dealt with.

Sokka's payment was Suki. It ent all the way back to the beginning and I loved it,.... it paid off for me.

Also here is a lit of episodes I reemember loiving,

The Painted Lady

Sokka's Master

The Avatar and the Firelord

The Puppetmaster

Day of Black Sun

The Boiling Rock

Sozin's Comet

My position is that while no project is perfect, there are still principals that govern the quality of craftsmanship of a work within a given medium; in any case where the work centers on storytelling, then how that story is built is open to examination. If at anytime one or more decisions are made in its creation process that deteriorate or detract from it's coherency or ability to be compelling, then it's fair to critique those elements.

To me, words like "good" are indications of overall quality of a thing; In the case of popular media, that statement of quality can and ideally should coincide with the likelihood one will be entertained by that thing, but it is not the same. We recognize this in popular culture when we refer to something as a "guilty pleasure", something that was not of high or moderate overall quality but that we enjoyed anyway.

That you or anyone else enjoys something apart from any sort of analysis by yourself or another, is perfectly ok. In fact, I should add that any remark I made that may have come across that you or anyone else is less of a person because something was enjoyed to a different extent to myself is a dick move, so I apologize.

ATLA is not a series I hated or even disliked, it was one I was frustrated by. This series pushed an idea never seen in american animation and almost never seen on TV in general: That a show can tell a single, series long story with continuous continuity being built upon forming an epic scale, major arc with an equally big pay off at the end; the problem I had was that it fell desperately short of that when the writers and creators demonstrated themselves as being better than that.

Now, all that said, let's look at your response.





You liked these episodes and that's ok. this is a statement that is not subject to debate on my part but neither serves as support to any argument you might be advancing, if that was even your intent.

I had a similar conversation with Az in another thread about essentially the same thing; the conclusion I came to is that while there were a number of well played moments in the season, I was looking at the overall structure of the season and how it played in the series as a whole.




I should clarify what I mean: when I say something was "set up" or "paid off" I'm not talking about any sort of reward received by characters in a story, rather, I'm talking about how something is established in a narrative and then how it is subsequently brought to fruition within that narrative.





Introspection and self examination are ok, but it can be handled properly. For instance, I could, say, stub my toe and in response I could shrug it off, mutter a short curse, yell "OW!" really loud, cry heavily or something else. In each case I tell you something about myself as a character but depending on which choice I made, however reflexive, you are left with a different impression of me where your estimation may improve or diminish. Further, if in all the times you've seen me stub my toe over the years, I go from one type of reaction to another you have watched me change but then If I suddenly react the same way I did when I was 5 or reacted by uttering a phrase in a language I don't know or don't react at all, then it creates an inconsistency that you are left to deal with and may or may not be able to reconcile.

With Zucko, we see him address his issues with immature action but later with decisive, mature action; if he then has any episode, where he responds to his issues by not taking action and is moping about, then the character is broken, his arc is diminished as well as impacting the narrative for the worse.



That the bad guys find out about the plan isn't a problem in the story, but it does raise a question about how they will choose to respond when they figure out they have walked into a trap., once they took the area they were in and the bad guys popped up it never occurs to any of the seasoned, tactical leaders, to entrench themselves in what is an already fortified position until either support arrives or they are able to extend the reach of their claimed land; instead, they completely loose their shit and begin one of the biggest failed retreats in fiction. See, when characters don't make choices that make sense for them, the writer needs to tell us WHY, if they don't, then it reads as a contrivance and breaks the story.







If he was removed from the story, it would still work; He didn't need to be there at all, so get rid of him. Zucko would still be able to rebuild trust with the other characters, he could still train Ang (or at least he should have been able to, but that's a separate point) and most importantly, he can still confront and unseat his father (which was also screwed up). If a character does nothing, get rid of them; if they are merely a plot devise, get rid of them; if the writer has to give a character something to do, eliminate them from the scene, if not from the story.

First Noble Bear I would like to offer an apology, the message I wrote was a knee-jerk response to perceived insults to something I thoroughly enjoyed. It was also written past midnight which for me usually means My brain is half asleep, now rereading it I see it for the garbled mess that it was and I apologize for sending it to try to counter point your well thought out points. You deserved more attention and consideration than I offered you and I apologize for that.

I also offer another apology, in like to the one you offered, if what I said gave off and aire of superiority or that you were somehow less of a person fro lot liking something I enjoyed, I apologize thoroughly to you.

I made the list to try to challenge that there were plenty of episodes that were very interesting and well written pieces that enhanced the story and the world and showcased various characters in various ways to defend about the concept that the entire season was a mistake



Very well, but I feel Sokka's entire character and especially his romance with Suki was set up very well and paid off great. It was established in the first three episodes with the Kiss from Suki, Sokka then continued on his journey and ended up meeting a princess who he had feelings for. Their romance ends with a tragic sacrifice which he remembers every time he looks at the moon. He then meets up with Suki again and she still has the hots for him but Sokka isn't really ready to pursue anything because of pain of the loss of Yue, though he still has feelings for Suki. Later he learns that She had been captured and was tortured by Azula who taunts him that she used to call for him to save her but eventually gave up hope and that's when Sokka loses his cool, something he didn't do much of in the series. Later on a mission to save his dad he finds Suki and they reconnect and finally share a long awaited kiss. He frees her from prison and Suki joins the Gaang. In the final episode for the series, after being separated on what amounted to a suicide mission to stop the Fire nation with no time left on the doomsday clock Sokka looks like he and Toph are at their lowest point, Sokka has sacrificed his cool new sword, He his helplessly dangling supporting an blind ally from falling to her death as a line of enemies come to face them. Sokka even acknowledges that to Toph that they are gonna die and that the luck that got them this far had run out with the line "I don't think boomerang is coming back this time" I don't think I have ever seen Sokka so grim, he was always the irrepressible optimist who had a duty and while he doesn't completely break he does seemed resigned to the inevitable... and then Suki makes a triumphant return and saves them. To me that is a great Arc pay off. I will give you that not a lot happened in the second season for it (Though I can understand the reasons) though that is more a problem with the second season than the third (And I do agree that the second season was kinda weak at times)



Zuko is a character who didn't know what he wanted. Zuko was pursuing something that he thought would bring him happiness but he just needed to believe and respect himself. did not know what he wanted was not. Zuko was weak willed. Zuko was wishy washy. Most of Zuko's early maturity didn't come from him but from his Uncle trying to get him to do the right thing. And then he had his desire to just be a normal prince loved and respected by his father, which Azula knows is his weakness and tempts him with it, when Iroh knew that his father was a jerk and Zuko was a better man. Zuko isn't mature and he never really did mature much he just found a little more maturity but he still and will be fore a while, a kid who wasn't raised properly



Because the entire invasion plan was originally founded on the concept that they would have a large force taking the fire nation, but the fall of the earth kingdom and the loss of it's armies, it changed to a small ragtag army without any real hope of holding the city entire city in a prolonged siege without the leverage of captives (the firelord). It would have been a hit and run tactic that relied on the element of surprise, but they had lost that too without knowing it. They had nothing going for them except that the Avatar might survive. They did dig in but they sent away the weakest of their combatants (the children) and their best hope for eventual victory (The avatar) to safety as they managed a rear guard action that was sure to be over run, but would take resources and stall for time

It’s the reason why the 300 Spartans gave their lives at the battle of the thermopli, they guys were the best military strategists of their time and they give themselves up to the enemy as well, to buy time for their retreating forces to make it back to Greece before the invading horde.



If you remove combustion man then where is the main physical threat chasing them that season? Azula's anti-gaang was retired, the avatar was no more, they were able to move pretty freely in the Fire nation with disguises They needed another unstoppable unable to be reasoned with, devastating force and they got a bounty hunter to fill that role, to quote a line from Scott Sigler's the Starter "Have you ever argued with an explosion?" He fulfilled a purpose.

You also have to know that hollywood doesn't know or care about new or different. They want "the same thing only different" something truly new can get stifled by producers and directors and network executives who care more about making money than making a good story. They know they get more money by tricking foolish people into liking something than spending effort to make something good. Honestly I am suprised Nickelodeon didn't smoother the actual avatar series in fart jokes, bad puns, and juvenile humor because that’s what they did to the liners in and out of commercial breaks. It was personally revolting to hear. He was likely in for they physical threat factor which was missing.



Now I understand where your feelings are coming from. Perhaps our disparity happened here. I don’t want to be offensive or put words in your mouth but I feel you were looking for the series to live up to some standard you imposed on it, rather than simply enjoying it for the show it was. Now there is nothing wrong with not liking a show, I find many popular directors and genres mind numbingly horrible, so I do not consume the media, I will say I enjoyed reading your points and I think they are well thought out and I can see kinda where you are coming from with them even if I disagree with them. I also hope that maybe my counterpoints perhaps provided a new light or consideration on the discussed topics and id din;t just waste your time. I do not believe Avatar was flawless, but part of me actually feels that while Legend of Korra is pretty awesome it is actually not a good as the first, and is succeeding mainly on fan loyalty. So part of my reason for engaging in this debate is my questioning of how you would say it is an apology when it feels inferior to me.

It seems to be moving much slower and hasn’t really made me care about the fire ferrets winning the tournament, Mako didn’t really draw me in but he is growing on me little by little and Bolin still kind of annoys me (It’s like they are trying to make him like Sokka but he isn’t”) I’d like to learn more about republic city and go exploring, perhaps start helping people. The ATLA we learned all about the world through meeting individuals… some times they were misses (The great Divide) but we learned more and got drawn in. Now we have an entire new city and we aren’t really learning much about it. I would love to have Korra go exploring and getting into trouble (Something she seems toe be built to do character wise) that way we can see more of Chief Beifong, who I think is a great character and a perfect civil foil to the Avatar’s antics… I hope she is developed more thought the series. But currently we are focusing on love triangles and probending, neither of which seems that important Mako and Korra are gonna end up together because if they don’t the Zutarains will probably shit baby kittens (Thought the writers are nothing if not trolls) Honestly if the legened of Korra is an apology to anyone it’s an apology to Zutarans who thought Zuko and Katara had a love connection. Now we have Mako and Korra.

In conclusion Noble bear, I have met you, I have hugged you. I enjoyed your card game enormously! Thought I respectfully disagree with your stances for the above mentioned reasons, and I am eager to hear any thoughts you have my perceived weaknesses in Legend of Korra.

wank wank wank wank

Back to it!

The last episode was very good. All of the characters are growing on me more.

The more the series goes on, the more irritated I get that Korra and Bolin will absolutely not be a couple. They are god damned adorable together!

And Mako's just so ... bleh. He's really the only character so far that I absolutely can't get into at all. I thought I'd like him at first, but the longer it goes on, the less interested I am in him.