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What's the Best Place to Hide a Lich's Phylactery?

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Morgan_Lockbreaker
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Re: What's the Best Place to Hide a Lich's Phylactery?

Postby Morgan_Lockbreaker » Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:17 pm

Viletta Vadim wrote:
Lunar wrote:Honestly, were it me I would hide it at the bottom of a trench in the abyssal zone of the deepest ocean. The party would have to be epic level to find it and actually think to look there. The cold, pressure, and lack of light wouldn't be fun.

Actually, it's not that bad. If you have some form of waterbreathing, you could probably survive a couple minutes at higher levels, and you can just cast a Light cantrip on your hat for, y'know, light. Just use Water Breathing, use Contingency to set up a Teleport effect to pull you back, scry the phylactery through whatever means, use Greater Teleport to get to the phylactery, grab it, then let your contingency yank you back.


Or you could just use an Apparatus of the Crab.
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Re: What's the Best Place to Hide a Lich's Phylactery?

Postby Zanian0 » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:15 pm

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Re: What's the Best Place to Hide a Lich's Phylactery?

Postby DT_Defender » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:27 pm

Allright, how about this;

A Lich hides himself in a 1x1x1 room inside of a 6x6x6 box, that when solved ala Rubick's Cube kills everyone inside of a 50 mile radius with a massive world-destroying spell. (there's an epic spell that covers that I'm sure).

He has his phylactery on his side in ANOTHER MINIATURE sized version of the puzzle, his phylactery being a tiny pebble inside the 2nd puzzle. He then has an elder Prismatic Dragon eat the cube, and then fight a Terrasque. If the Dragon wins, if it wins he stays in the Prismatic Dragon's stomach, if not he finds another one and does it again until he finds the 'perfect' Prismatic Dragon'

This dragon is then directed to live inside a massive cavern full of instant death spikes covered in the blood of an elder demon, which will catch blaze if it touches anything organic. The only space for the dragon is a tiny room in the back of the dungeon behind a 30 foot thick obsidian wall. The dragon is fed daily by a family of constantly spawning black puddings that drizzle up through the floor via a 2cm crack in the ground (the puddings are in a similar room below).

That secure enough for ya? Neither the Lich nor his Phylactery could ever be found, or harmed.

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Re: What's the Best Place to Hide a Lich's Phylactery?

Postby Lunar » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:43 am

Viletta Vadim wrote:Actually, it's not that bad. If you have some form of waterbreathing, you could probably survive a couple minutes at higher levels, and you can just cast a Light cantrip on your hat for, y'know, light. Just use Water Breathing, use Contingency to set up a Teleport effect to pull you back, scry the phylactery through whatever means, use Greater Teleport to get to the phylactery, grab it, then let your contingency yank you back.

The pressure alone would crush them into nothingness. Not to mention decompression sickness. And since it's a D&D setting, why not throw in a few sea monsters to avoid?
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Re: What's the Best Place to Hide a Lich's Phylactery?

Postby Viletta Vadim » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:52 am

Lunar wrote:The pressure alone would crush them into nothingness. Not to mention decompression sickness. And since it's a D&D setting, why not throw in a few sea monsters to avoid?

This is D&D, where at mid-levels you can nose-dive off a thousand-foot cliff (10d6 damage) with no risk for yourself and heal back up naturally within a few days, just in time to tap-dance on molten lava (2d6 damage/round, 1d6/round for a couple rounds after that). You're talking more like 2d6 damage per round from pressure.

And your contingent Teleport would kick in well before monsters became an issue.
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Re: What's the Best Place to Hide a Lich's Phylactery?

Postby Aaron Stack » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:53 am

Lunar wrote:The pressure alone would crush them into nothingness. Not to mention decompression sickness. And since it's a D&D setting, why not throw in a few sea monsters to avoid?


Because this IS D&D, where Rule Zero Point One reads: "There's A Spell For That". Decompression sickness? Crushing pressure? It's Magic, I don't have to explain shit ;)

If nothing else there's the age-old "Lol Divine Intervention" thing. "It Is Not Your Time To Die, Hero. Enjoy Your Raise Dead Spell. Now Don't Do That Again." But that's more Clerics than Wizards.

Generally speaking, trying to think of a way a Wizard can't do something, just leads to something else they can overcome. They're like the Borg; you might kill one or two apprentices, but once they figure out how those apprentices get killed, they just Make A Spell For That. That's why Wizards get apprentices in the first place - so they can send them out like rats in a maze to test out and see what the limits on magic are, so the big name Wizards can Make A Spell For That and make sure it works.

You're better off making a setting and system where a Wizard can't solve all problems by Making A Spell For That, rather than trying to worm your way around the exisitng D&D canon, which basically says "Wizards Can Do Anything".
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Re: What's the Best Place to Hide a Lich's Phylactery?

Postby STGGrant » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:18 pm

Aaron Stack wrote:
Lunar wrote:The pressure alone would crush them into nothingness. Not to mention decompression sickness. And since it's a D&D setting, why not throw in a few sea monsters to avoid?


Because this IS D&D, where Rule Zero Point One reads: "There's A Spell For That". Decompression sickness? Crushing pressure? It's Magic, I don't have to explain shit ;)

If nothing else there's the age-old "Lol Divine Intervention" thing. "It Is Not Your Time To Die, Hero. Enjoy Your Raise Dead Spell. Now Don't Do That Again." But that's more Clerics than Wizards.

Generally speaking, trying to think of a way a Wizard can't do something, just leads to something else they can overcome. They're like the Borg; you might kill one or two apprentices, but once they figure out how those apprentices get killed, they just Make A Spell For That. That's why Wizards get apprentices in the first place - so they can send them out like rats in a maze to test out and see what the limits on magic are, so the big name Wizards can Make A Spell For That and make sure it works.

You're better off making a setting and system where a Wizard can't solve all problems by Making A Spell For That, rather than trying to worm your way around the exisitng D&D canon, which basically says "Wizards Can Do Anything".

Heck, someone already made a spell to handle this particular situation. Some guy named Gygax, I believe.

This is one reason the "Clever Tweaks" thread going on this particular board has been so active and so focused on alternative forms of magic—magic, if not really defined in a setting and not properly controlled when designing a game, can pretty much take care of any given challenge with a little preparation.
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Re: What's the Best Place to Hide a Lich's Phylactery?

Postby Lunar » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:21 pm

I try to apply some things that make sense in my games. Even though the rules technically say you can easily overcome the fifty level one or 1/2 guards, I'm still not letting you do it. There are fifty people, you are overwhelmed. GG.

The whole point would be that trying to get a phylactery would be a challenge, just swimming down there and taking a pew d6 of damage is incredibly lame and anticlimactic. I would want my party to come up with some other way to get it that doesn't involve a wizard stealing the spotlight with: "Taadaa! Magic!" Even though two of my players are rules lawyers I know that they would simply look at that situation and find it stupid, they'd want to figure out some other way that would be more fulfilling to them.

There's a suspension of disbelief in an RPG to be sure, but something so ridiculous ruins the immersion and no one in my group would find that fun.
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Re: What's the Best Place to Hide a Lich's Phylactery?

Postby Aaron Stack » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:41 pm

Saragon wrote:Heck, someone already made a spell to handle this particular situation. Some guy named Gygax, I believe.

This is one reason the "Clever Tweaks" thread going on this particular board has been so active and so focused on alternative forms of magic—magic, if not really defined in a setting and not properly controlled when designing a game, can pretty much take care of any given challenge with a little preparation.


Yep. It's Magic (tm). ;) I fluctuate between "Magic As Art" and "Magic As Science" as my personal favorite portrayal. I'm in a "As Science" skew moreso lately, but I do like the unknowable and unpredictable aspects of it as well.

Lunar wrote:There's a suspension of disbelief in an RPG to be sure, but something so ridiculous ruins the immersion and no one in my group would find that fun.


Which is why you don't use D&D as written for much of anything. ;)
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Re: What's the Best Place to Hide a Lich's Phylactery?

Postby Viletta Vadim » Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:09 pm

Lunar wrote:I try to apply some things that make sense in my games. Even though the rules technically say you can easily overcome the fifty level one or 1/2 guards, I'm still not letting you do it. There are fifty people, you are overwhelmed. GG.

Except that doesn't make sense at all.

First off, if I have, say, a high-level Psion, I could kill fifty people easy with one Energy Wave, and nearly take out a city block while I'm at it. It doesn't make sense for raw numbers to overwhelm.

If you're willing to accept magic as a response but nothing else, then setting aside balance concerns, the Fighter in the group is defined as being equal in power to that Psion, and yet, he's somehow automatically overwhelmed just because he doesn't have a sign that says "magic?" We're talking about a guy whose job description pretty much reads, "Kill monsters that kill armies," and he's not given his fighting chance? We're not talking technicalities, here; it is self-evident within the world and the genre that this guy is tremendously powerful, to an extent that's orders of magnitude beyond those putzes surrounding him. That's not rules lawyering. That's just the basic logic of, "Hey, the entire army got wiped out by that dragon this warrior slew in a duel. He's clearly obscenely powerful." Basic logic: Dragon > Army, Fighter > Dragon, thus it's not that hard to conclude that Fighter > Army.

This is heroic fantasy. What's more, it's D&D, with a rocket ship power scale built in as you go from, "Goblins are dangerous," to, "I can threaten demon lords." That's not rules lawyering; that's a fundamental genre/system assumption.

When you're getting to level 7, 10, 13 characters, you're not talking about Bob the Militiaman anymore. You're talking Beowulf, Cid, Roland. When you hit level 20, you're talking Cuchulain. It does not make sense for Beowulf to go down without a fight against fifty mooks when we're talking about the guy who ripped Grendel's arm off and whose might is enough to scare off entire countries even when he's in his eighties. Cuchulain's established as being able to stop armies in their tracks.

That 13th-level Fighter is an overtly superhuman being, defined as the equal to a Glabrezu or an adult green dragon or three T-Rexes. That's not a technicality. That's a basic genre assumption. We're talking Greek heroes, and unless those fifty men could take on a fully-grown dragon, it's a vastly greater suspension of disbelief to accept that they could take that Fighter down. After all, how in the Hell does a band of putzes hope to take down Hercules?

And if you don't want warriors defined as being on par with a Glabrezu, why are you playing a game whose defining feature is that rocket ship power scale designed to get you up there over the course of two thirds of a summer, then beyond?
Lunar wrote:The whole point would be that trying to get a phylactery would be a challenge, just swimming down there and taking a pew d6 of damage is incredibly lame and anticlimactic. I would want my party to come up with some other way to get it that doesn't involve a wizard stealing the spotlight with: "Taadaa! Magic!" Even though two of my players are rules lawyers I know that they would simply look at that situation and find it stupid, they'd want to figure out some other way that would be more fulfilling to them.

Swordsmen solve problems by swording.

Thieves solve problems by thiefing.

Mages solve problems by magicking.

Getting angry at players or calling them rules lawyers just for doing what they're fundamentally expected to do. Mages are designed to solve their problems with magic, and if there is a character who has the abilities to locate any object in the multiverse, teleport anywhere in the world, ward themselves against environmental hazards, breathe water, generate light, and return safely, it doesn't make one lick of sense for them to just ignore the abilities they've spent a lifetime studying. It's not spotlight stealing; it's taking the obvious and sensible solution.

You're expecting the characters to go out of character to act like idiots and buffoons whenever competence is inconvenient. That's bad policy.
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